G.—s
82
J. H. POPE.
83. Have you met any of the pupils after they have left the school and gone into private life? —Yes. 84. And they have benefited by the education given there?— Yes. 85. Mr. Ngata.] I have before me your report on secondary education for the Maoris in 1902 : have you seen any reason since to alter any views expressed in that paper ?—There may be some trifling details perhaps that lapse of time has caused to become of more or of less importance; but my views are expressed in that paper, and I shall stand or fall by them. 86. Those are your views aftei some twenty or thirty years' experience of Native schools and in connection with higher schools? —Yes, after twenty-four years' experience. To what has been said above it is desirable to add that most valuable assistance was given by Mr. H. B. Kirk, M.A., for many years. As that gentleman will give evidence on the whole subject, it is unnecessary to say more than that many important and well-thought-out improvements suggested by us owe their existence to him to a very considerable extent. At Mr. Ngata's request an extract from the report by Mr. Pope on Native schools from E.-2, 1902, was put in [Exhibit No. 41]. Felix Theophilus O'Neill examined. 87. The Chairman.] What are you? —I am Chief Clerk, Lands and Survey Department. 88. You produce a file of correspondence relating to the issue of title to the Te Aute endowment? —Yes, from the earliest time we have been able to find it. From the letter of Sir George Grey to Mr. Domett. 89. Is that a complete record?— Yes, in the Land and Survey Department, 90. You also produce two deeds of cession from the Natives to the Queen ? —Yes [Exhibit [No. 42], and the conveyance in connection with the exchange—from the Bishop to the Queen. George Hogben examined. 91. The Chairman.] You are Inspector-General of Schools? —Yes; I have occupied that position since the Ist April, 1899. 92. You have studied this question of the education given at the Te Aute School?— Yes. I wish to offer evidence on that; possibly it might be more convenient if 1 made a general statement first. 93. Will you kindly make a general statement on any matters referred to the Commission, and also on any other questions which may be of assistance to the Commission ?—The position at Te Aute educationally is really only a part of a very large question. The whole aspect of education has changed very much in the last twenty-five years, and probably it will change very much more during the next twenty-five years. It is probably pretty safe to prophesy that. So that it is almost unnecessary to say that one does not greatly blame the Te Aute authorities for being like many of their European brethren, a little behind in relation to this matter. Some of us have been trying for twenty-five years or more to bring about a change, and we have been looked upon as faddists accordingly; but other people are now coining round to our views. Revolutions do not pay educationally any more than they do in any other respect; but nevertheless the time does come for 'radical changes. Having watched Te Aute ever since I came to this colony, and having been acquainted to a certain extent with the treatment —not always successful—of highly-endowed Native races elsewhere, it was refreshing to come to this colony and see what was being done by the trustees and the Government for the higher education of Maoris, and to follow up the question with some degree of interest. But I think that the time has come when atTe Aute there should be a change that may be described as nothing less than radical. It is no use trying to patch up any longer the old system, but we must make a radical change. Public opinion, that of the trustees themselves, and the opinion of the Department I think agree generally in this, that, as I have said, the time has come for a radical change. When you are making a radical change it is just as well to look at the principles on which you are making it, and do the work properly when you have the opportunity That change has been made in a certain sense at Hukarere. The amount of change that was necessary at Hukarere was less than is necessary at Te Aute. When I visited Hukarere in December, 1904, and examined the pupils (as I examined also the pupils of the other secondary Maori schools), I did so in order that I might become acquainted more fully with the quality of the work done. I had inspected these schools before and had seen the work done by the various classes while the teaching was going on; but I also wanted to judge it by examination. I found that the hint which had been given at my inspection visit to Hukarere as to the teaching of Latin had only been partly acted upon It was my duty to inspect that school, or to send an Inspector of Native Schools to inspect it; but I was not in a position exactly to dictate to the authorities what they should teach. Even in regard to the holders of Government scholarships I did not desire to take up the attitude of appearing to dictate so much as to suggest. At the time of the examination, however, I said, "What is the use of teaching these girls Latin? They have already learnt one foreign language. Would it not be better that the time spent in Latin—in teaching the pupils another foreign language—were spent in teaching them practical work?" They agreed to that, and since then I believe no Latin has been taught there. The effect has been not to diminish the quantity or the intellectual quality or value of the work done. The education those girls receive allows time for practical work which may also be used as an educational instrument. That brings me to a very important point involved in one of the problems before the Commission which you cannot shut ouE altogether from the discussion of the question. Some previous witnesses seemed to suggest that if there is no Latin in the course it is not secondary education, or, at least that, if there is no foreign language in it other than English, it is not secondary education. That opinion is held probably by the majority of people even now. I think, however, that a change in public opinion will take place in, say, the next twenty-five years; that change will consist in giving up
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