G. HOGBEN.]
85
G.—s.
way. We have been suggesting a little every year. We prefer to convert them to our views rather than to dictate. That is our policy; we have been putting forward our views with a little more insistence every year, and this year we have gone so far as to say what we think should be taught to the Government scholars —those are really the only ones we have a right to speak about, We have indicated, in more or less polite terms, that we think the time has come for a radical change. 98. Have the authorities at Te Aute expressed any disinclination to fall in with your views? — 1 could not say that they were converted to our views. They have not finally replied to our last letter, and we do not know exactly how far they are prepared to go. As soon as it was known that this Commission was to be set up the matter was left in abeyance. They have shown a disposition to come some way towards adopting our suggestions. For instance, as regards woodwork for our own scholars, they are willing to give four hours a week, which is what we ask; but for the rest of the boys I think they propose only two hours and a half a week. They did not want to give up Latin. They wanted to keep the College like an old English grammar school. They thought it was the only place where Maori boys could be thoroughly trained. lam just as keen that the Maori boy should receive that real training that English boys will get in public schools in the future; but to think that that training cannot be given without Latin is one of those superstitions that is dying very hard, but it is nearly dead. It will be dead in a few years. 99. Do you think that the system of education in the school and all similar schools should be under the control of the Education Department?—l am not quite so sure of that, f think that it is just as well as far as regards control that there should be separate bodies. I believe in separate local boards from the primary education right up to the top. Ido not believe in the whole thing being centralised. I think, moreover, it should be under the inspection of the Central Department. I am of opinion also that a certain amount of choice even with regard to education should be left to the trustees or governors. 100. You do not suggest that there should be legislation compelling them to conduct their school according to the views of the Education Department?— No. The Secondary Schools Act recognised the independence of secondary schools, but it said there must be a scheme approved by the Minister, and if the scheme were not approved of by the Minister the matter was to be referred to a Commission of three, consisting of one person appointed by the governing body, the InspectorGeneral of Schools, who is supposed to represent the Government, and the Chancellor of the University of New Zealand; and they are to draw up some scheme, and when that is placed before the Minister it becomes the scheme for the management of the school. I think a similar arrangement might be made in regard to Te Aute, the final decision resting with a commission of three — one person appointed by each side, and an independent person appointed from outside. 101. They should be men who are practically experts?— Yes. 102. You are an expert, no doubt? —I count myself as an expert. At lease I have been nearly forty years learning my business, since I left school.
Friday, Ist June, 1906. George Hogben further examined. 1. The Chairman.] Before we continue our examination, is there anything you would like to add to your statement of yesterday?— There is one point I should like to extend a little, so as to give a practical issue to what I said yesterday in regard to training in farming. The modification of the syllabus that I suggested—namely, the practical syllabus set out for the Civil Service Junior Examination would occupy about two years if you gave four hours a week to it. It could be thoroughly well done by a Maori boy who had passed the Sixth Standard in two years, and he could do nearly every part of it. That would include ordinary agriculture, the elements of dairywork, fruit-growing, and the farming that involves the growing of fodder plants for dairying. In other words, he would be pretty well equipped in regard to preliminary training. A good number of the boys stay three years, and I think very definite and useful work could be done in the three years. For the boys who had the first two years' work to do you would want not more than 4 acres altogether. You do not want the plots to be too large. Each plot must be such that not too much time is occupied in cultivating it. The boys should work just for the sake of the knowledge they are getting, and for no other purpose. The 4 acres would be ample for the whole of them for the first two years' work. You could do with less, but I should recommend about 4 acres, calculating that there are eighty boys in the school. But for the third year I should recommend something more extended- I should recommend that for them there be kept a larger area —50 acres might be enough, but 100 acres would be better —as an experimental farm, which those in the first and second years could see in operation, but which those in the third year could work. They would therefore be extending their knowledge of elementary agriculture into actual practice; they would be actually farming. We know that twenty or thirty boys could not farm on four acres, but they could actually farm on 100 acres—that is, in the third year. These 100 acres could be divided into four portions, and they would work those four portions exactly as they would work their own farms. It would be a very valuable year indeed. The Commission will understand in a general way what I mean without further explanation. The same would be true of carpentry. Two years would make an extremely good course for a boy at carpentry, leaving out the highly technical things —I mean stair-casing, highly finished inside work, and so on, which it is not necessary to teach at Te Aute at all. They could not expect to do such work, and would not want to. But leaving that out, you could give a very good two years' course of instruction in carpentry. We know that apprentices in workshops have to do other work for their masters which calls them away from the actual instruction, so that they do not get four hours a week of instruction. If you get four hours a week
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