G.—s.

92

[g. hogben.

I think the eye, the ear, and the throat are more important, because the teeth give a warning at a pretty early stage if anything is wrong. But there may be cases where children have defective hearing or weak eye sight, and those children may be regarded as stupid, whereas they may not have heard the questions asked them, or not be able to see the blackboard. 79. Mr. Eliott.] You submitted a programme yesterday. Is that programme, so far as applicable, carried out in the Native schools?—l sketched out a programme for secondary schools. 80. Are the beginnings being taught in the Native schools now so as to lead the pupils up to this ?—Yes. 81. Have you ever heard of any objection to Te Aute boys on account of their religion-—any objection to admitting boys to Te Aute?—There have been religious difficulties in connection with boys who have been candidates—that is, Government scholars—because they were not members of the Church of England. Of course, Te Aute has a Church of England foundation. 82. Mr. Ngata.] Was the difficulty raised by the Te Aute authorities or by the parents?—By the parents, on account of what the Te Aute authorities required of them. 83. Mr. Eliott.] With whom does the Department communicate with respect to Te Aute—with Mr. Thornton ?—With Mr. Thornton on some matters, and with Archdeacon Williams on other matters as representing the trustees. 84. Does the Department recognise Hukarere as part of the Te Aute trust?— The Department is not fully aware of the extent to which the Hukarere School Act has been availed of. That Act gave power to use some of the funds for Hukarere, but the Department has no official information as to how it has been used. 85. As to the Hukarere School, with whom do you communicate?— With Miss Williams, who is the representative of the trustees. 86. Do you think they want more accommodation at Te Aute?—l doubt whether there is sufficient accommodation. Ido not think there is. 87. The present accommodation at Te Aute is sufficient only for seventy-five: could you send more than that ?—Yes, we could send more than we do. Ido not consider the accommodation is sufficient for seventy-five. 88. Are you aware of the condition of some of the buildings—that there is dry rot in some of them? —That is so. .89. You are paying £20 a year for pupils: they tell us that it costs £25 to keep them?— Surely they can find the other £5 out of the trust. 90. Now, with respect to the donors of the land or their descendants, and their views?— The donors of the land are dead. I do not recognise that the descendants of the donors know any more as to the intentions than we do. 91. The Chairman.] You say that the intentions of the deceased ought to be regulated to the wants of the times?—-Yes; you must not have a dead hand on a trust fund. In the year 1857, with a knowledge of the deeds before them, it was deliberately decided by the authorities that the trust was for the benefit, of the aboriginal inhabitants of New Zealand. 92. Mr, Eliott.] Do you consider that a contribution of £20 a year for each boy is sufficient? —I do, in view of the fact that there is a trust. We always expect when there is an endowment that the endowment shall find part of the cost. I think the present arrangements show generosity, if anything, on the part of the Government. 93. Have you ever heard any complaints or objections from parents to the boys being put to manual labour or farming?— No. 94. Mr. Ngata.] The changes that you propose in Te Aute and other Maori high schools, I suppose, have been thought out as part of a general scheme for adapting the system of education to the present needs of the Maori people?— Yes. 1 should treat the Maori people, in thinking out a scheme, as part of the nation —if I may call it—of New Zealand. The two races are growing up into one civil and social system. 95. I want to locate these schools a little better in your scheme. There are three schools — St. Stephen's, the Three Kings, and Te Aute (I am leaving Otaki out at present). Have you anything to do with the Three Kings?— Practically nothing. It is a trust more like St. Stephen's; the terms are wider than Te Aute. There are other trusts, but no schools connected with them. 96. It is 3'our idea to run St. Stephen's and Te Aute on the same lines and up to the same standard?- —Pretty well on the same linos. St. Stephen's might perhaps teach more trades because it is near a large centre where instruction in such subjects can be given, whereas at Te Aute it would be far better to have agricultural instruction. I would give the St. Stephen's boy the two years' training in agriculture I have indicated at Te Aute, but he would not be able to get the third year 97. You practically mean raising the standard of both schools, but in the meantime there has been a general rise in the standards of Native schools?— There has been a very perceptible rise. 98. Would you dd away with the primary classes in the two schools?—l would not have any teaching below the Fifth Standard at all. I think it is undesirable. You do not want to keep the young Maoris too long away from their own people. 99. Having passed the Fourth. Standard in the Native schools the pupils would be ready for admission to both. St, Stephen's and Te Aute, or would you go higher?—l would go higher. You could get quite enough from the Fifth Standard, You do not want to keep the boys too long from their people, but, still, you want to make the secondary education beneficial to them. 100. Take your genius or promising boy in the Native village school —say, in the Fifth or Sixth Standard —would you reoommend sending him direct to a grammar school, or would you send him to St Stephen's or Te Aute for two years first?—lf his genius was remarked after passing the Sixth Standard in the village school, and if he was obviously fitted for higher training, and