H. B KIRK.]

103

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44. Do you think they would be improved by a commercial course of training? —I do not think so. Ido not think they are yet in need of it. 45. Should they not be taught book-keeping?— Yes, simple book-keeping. That, I take it, would go with a thorough understanding of accounts. 46. Mr. Lee] Speaking generally of the Maori race and of the need of a higher education for the cleverer children than the ordinary school in the kainga affords, do you think the Te Aute School and the Hukarere School would serve the purpose as secondary schools for the Maoris?— With regard to the selected intelligence of the Maori which, I think, might be drafted to the European ways of life, I think better results would be achieved by having the boys at a European secondary school. The Maoris that are to. receive a really advanced English education would do better at the Auckland Grammar School, for example, than at Te Aute. 47. Does that apply to the few who need a classical education? —To the few, in my opinion. I think Te Aute and St. Stephen's are schools that are quite equal to the needs of the average Maori, who, having good abilities, can specially use his abilities among his own people. 48. Would you agree to expunge from the Te Aute curriculum, say, Latin, geometry, and algebra in order to get more instruction in some technical branch?— Yes, for all but such as are likely to be leaders of their people, in the rather higher ranks, so to speak, than the average Maori can take. I should not like to give the impression that I think lightly of these subjects. I think highly of them, and I think highly especially of the mathematical subjects as a means of mental training; but I do not think there is in the few years we ought to keep a Maori away from his people time for them. 49. Do you happen to know if arithmetic is a difficulty at Te Aute College?—l did not know it was a difficulty. I know the Maori is generally very apt at arithmetic. 50. Do you think that instruction in the technique of agriculture would be a good subject to take at 'Te Aute College ?—I think that every Maori should, so far as we train him, be trained to a limited extent in agricultural knowledge—to such an extent as will enable him to appreciate the simpler farming operations, and to know why he does a given thing, and what to do to attain a given result, But I should go no further with him, because it is by no means certain he is going to be a farmer, for one thing; and, again, the training at Te Aute or in a secondary school, especially for Maoris, should be a general training. 51. Do you think any actual industrial occupation should be taken up?—l do not think so. It again depends on my view that the Maori should go back to his own people. It has seemed to me always that a Maori apprentice must go amongst Europeans to make a living. If he works among his own people they do not at present see that work should be paid for in money, and he is likely to starve. Therefore, to make use of the training we have given him he must live away from his people. 52. Mr. Eliott.] You have more than once expressed the opinion that Maori boys should be discouraged from learning a trade and living amongst Europeans?— That is my opinion. 53. As a matter of fact, does not the educated Maori boy generally go back to the kainga life, and, instead of raising the people to his standard, does he not sink down to theirs?—l am afraid I must admit that it is so. I think 1 might be allowed to say we are discussing not only what the condition is at present, but what the condition will be supposing the Commission modifies it, At the same time, Ido not hope we shall at present get over that tendency to relapse. 54. Do you not think it would be a greater incentive to the younger boys in the kainga if they saw a man pursuing his calling amongst Europeans, and earning a good living by it?— They might want to come up to his standard. A few would, and many would not. Then, again, for the most part they would not see this shining example. 55. Is not the whole tendency of the education to Europeanise the Maori, and not to keep him as a distinct race?—l do not want to keep him as a distinct race, but I do not want to absorb the best Maoris and leave the rest to remain Maoris. I should like to say that, in my opinion, communism is the reason why so many relapse. Once we pass that barrier we shall have fewer lapses. 56. Mr. Ngata.] The suggestion has been made to do away with the matriculation classes at Te Aute: do you fall in with that?—ln the main, I do. 57. The difficulty, I think, is one of keeping up a separate staff; it is a question of expense and a question of time, so the suggestion has been thrown out to do away with subjects like Latin, Euclid, and algebra—which 1 may call matriculation subjects—and substitute an extended course in English, and subjects like elementary practical agriculture and manual instruction?— Yes, if matriculation work for a limited number cannot be afforded. I should be entirely in favour of that, although I once fought the battle of the Latin classes at Te Aute, and considered I had made a case. 58. For matriculation work you suggest they would profit more by attending some European secondary school ?—I think so. 59. What is your idea as to the selected cases which go to the European secondary schools with the further idea of going on to the University ? Is it your idea that in future they should go back and work amongst their own people?—l think if the Education Department, say, at the Fourth or Fifth Standard, was satisfied that a boy had very great natural ability, such ability as would make him a creditable scholar, and if it were fairly well convinced that the boy was morally sound and a sticker at work, a fellow who would do his best, and still more if it had any reason whatever to suppose that the boy was a real lover of his own people, 1 should have no hesitation in training such a boy as a European, with the confidence that later on he would become a Europeanised leader of the Maoris. 60. A good deal has been said before this Commission of the tendency to relapse: are you aware of any case which might fairly be called an absolute relapse?—l think I know more cases among girls than among boys. Of course, the boys retain the European polish and manners; but, so far as industry is concerned, I think I know of several cases of relapse.