G.—s.

104

[h. b. kick.

61. Do you mean absolute failure, where the education has not been of the slightest benefit to themselves or to their people?—l should be sorry to use the term " absolute failure," because Ido not think I could get at the inwardness of any one case sufficiently. I mean if I had had the conduct of that boy's education, and had known this was to be the result, I should have left him alone. 62. Perhaps you would attribute the failure—if it may be called failure—as much to the natural tendency of the "beast" —if I may use the expression—rather than to his education? — Undoubtedly. Ido not think he is a worse Maori because educated, but he is a more noticeably bad Maori. On the other hand, I know of old Te Aute and St .Stephen's boys who are doing fine work in their settlements. I should be sorry if in anything I .-aid I gave the impression that Te Aute or any other Maori school has been a failure. 63. Have you read the public-school syllabus under the heading of "Elementary Practical Agriculture " ?—Yes. 64. Do you think a syllabus like that, adapted to the needs of the Maori people, would be more profitable to an institution like Te Aute or St. Stephen's?—l think that syllabus on lower lines would be a suitable one. Ido not think the time given to training a Maori up to that point would be sufficient 65. In regard to any proper curriculum for any Native school, you want a previous close acquaintance with the average needs of the Maori people in their kaingas?—Yes, unquestionably. 66. I think the Education Department has that in view now in the reorganization of Native schools, and in the suggestions thrown out for improvements in St. Stephen's and Te Aute? —Yes, I think that is so. George Hogben further examined. 67. The Chairman.] We should like to know from you who actually receives the money paid by the Government for the boys and girls sent from the Native village schools to Te Aute and Hukarere? —The money paid on account of Government scholars at Te Aute College is paid to the Yen. Archdeacon Samuel Williams, and that paid for Government scholars at Hukarere Maori Girls' School is paid to the agent of Miss A. M. Williams, at Napier.

Friday, Bth June, 1906. William Charles Kensington examined. 1. The Chairman.] You are Under-Secretary for Crown Lands?— Yes. .2.. You received instructions from the Minister of Lands to inspect the Te Aute Estate? —From the Acting-Premier, with a view to giving evidence as to whether it was fit for cutting up for close settlement. 3. You went up to Te Aute?—Yes, and on Tuesday I rode over the greater part of the estate. 4. Will you kindly state to the Commission the result of your investigation? —I may say that the total area of the estate is about 6,469 acres, so far as I could judge. That means that 92 acres have been taken off for roads and railway. I consider that the whole of the estate is fit for close settlement. It is one of the best-kept estates of the kind that I have been over. There are about 1,200 acres, as near as I could possibly judge, which I consider inferior land. It is inferior when you come to compare it with the rest of the estate, and the hills themselves are poor, and steep, and broken. So far as I could gather, most people seemed to favour the cutting-up of the land into areas of from 400 to 600 acres, but, of course, there is a great deal of the area that could be cut up certainly profitably into areas ranging from 150 to 200 to 250 acres. Some parts of the land are remarkably good. 5. Having inspected the property, and having regard to the whole of the circumstances existing at the time the last lease was given, I should like to know your opinion as to whether that lease was an improvident lease or not ?—I should like to know, before answering, exactly when the lease was renewed. I have not been reading the evidence. 6. In 1903 the rental was £2,200 a year, or an average of 6s. 6d. per acre, and, in addition to that, the Archdeacon is giving free milk and cheap meat —about £150 a year —which, of course, is not mentioned in the lease? —Well, looking at the price of land three years ago, and bearing in mind all the circumstances, and the fact that the trustees had to provide revenue for a going concern in the school, and having regard to Mr, Coutts's valuation, which I see he has given to the Commission at £6 18s. an acre on the average, I think that a fairly full value was given at the time of the renewal of the lease. I think that Mr. Coutts's valuation in 1904 of £6 18s..per acre is a very fair valuation. Of course, land has gone up very much in value since, and probably £7 155., I should say, would be a fair value now. lam going a good deal by the value of our Argyll Settlement about three years ago. I put in a plan for the information of the Commission showing the Te Aute College lands, and also the Argyll Settlement on both sides, witli the capital value per acre of each section in the Argyll Settlement at which it was offered to the Dtiblic in June, 1903. This value includes the cost of the land, and the cost of roading and administration and incidental expenses ,' , ,/ _ tit., 7. Were you accompanied by anybody in making the value?— Mr. Barron, Land Purchase Inspector, and Mr. Gold Smith, Commissioner of Crown Lands, were with me, but I did not consult them. I have given my own valuation. 8. We may look upon you as an expert?—As a member of the Land Purchase Board, I ought to know something about land-values. ~,.,. -, „'. '~„ --- 9. In giving evidence before a Select Committee of the Legislative '.ouncil in 1875, Archdeacon Williams said, in answer to a question from the Chairman : "What do you think would