(*.— 5.

160

[T. B. MACLEAN.

children need not attend the religious services at the school ?—I think that would have to go to the General Synod. I have no doubt about it, because the powers of trustees, as defined by the General Synod, would not give the trustees power to decide that question. 40. Would you favour such a clause yourself?—l would not favour anything that would prevent the students from meeting in the College chapel for common worship. 41. That is not the question. Let all boys belonging to the Church of England go to the chapel and have their religious services; but would you bar the children of other denominations from going to the school as boarders because they refused to go to the chapel services? —Personally, I should be quite willing for them to go to their own churches, if it was so desired by their parents, on Sunday morning; but I think, the whole school should be together at least once on the Sunday in their common chapel. I think that is the very centre and soul of the school. 42. Why should not the children belonging to other denominations go to their own churches, or perhaps some to none at all, if their parents so desired? —I think it would destroy the unity of the school unless the boarders attended, as I say, at least once on the Sunday as a whole school. The day-boys can do as they like. 43. Could not the boys of other denominations do something else at the time? —I do not think it would be satisfactory. 44. Has it ever been tried? —I do not think so. 45. At present it is a bar to any boy going into the school as a boarder unless he consents to attend the religious services at the school?—lt is. 46. Have you read what Sir George Grey said on that point in the debates in Hansard and in evidence before Select Committees of the House? —I was not aware he had said anything. 47. Did you read the letter Mr. I. D. Bell (afterwards Sir Francis) wrote to the Colonial Secretary before the grant was actually signed?—l have read it. 48. He says this: " The Governor having directed me to make inquiries at Wanganui as to the opinion the settlers might have entertained of the scheme of an industrial school, I have further to state that I found, on explaining His Excellency's views to many persons, a great desire to see the school established. Indeed, the most pressing want just now is that of education. Every one complains of the evils consequent on there being no good school there. The Roman Catholics, it is true, are making some efforts to provide instruction for the children, but their means are very limited, and the establishment of a good school on liberal principles as regards religious training would, I was assured, by every one to whom I spoke on the subject, be hailed with the utmost satisfaction by the community." The position, according to that letter, as regards religious training in the school is that although the grant is to the Bishop, and the tenets of the Church of England are to be paramount, yet the people of other denominations were not to be excluded ?—Well, they are not excluded. 49. They are, as boarders? —I do not think so. Ido not think it could possibly be conflicting with anybody's conscience to attend chapel services. 50. You compel them to attend? —Certainly. 51. If you say to a boy who is a Roman Catholic," You cannot come to our school unless you go into our church and take part in our services," that would be against his conscience, or against the conscience of his parents?— That is so. But that is a question that the trustees cannot deal with in any way: it would have to go before the General Synod. 52. Is that not a question of the construction of the trust?—-The trust says you must give them religious instruction, and a chaplain is there to give them that instruction, and he is paid out of the trust funds to give that instruction, and I do not see how any one who is unwilling to receive that instruction can be received. 53. Now, Sir George Grey gave evidence before a Select Committee of the House in 1875 to this effect (he was under examination by Mr. Macandrew): "But I understand it is proposed by the Bishop of the Church of England that the education should be confined to children of Church of England parents?— That was not my intention at. all. I only state that with regard to myself I should have no objection to sending my children to a Presbyterian or a Wesleyan school.——That is not the point. I understand the point is that no children shall be admitted but those belonging to that Church? —That was not my intention ; but whether- the Courts would hold the Bishop justified in that I cannot say. The moment the grant issues, all the matters become questions to be decided by the Courts. I believe all these grants were made on one plan, which did not suppose the parents to have any particular religious belief. There is nothing of the kind stated in the deed." What have you to say about that?—l would like it to be very clear that, so far as I know, I think it is the opinion of the trustees that they are bound to give religious instruction according to the tenets of the Church of England. 54. Do you not think if you give religious education in accordance with the tenets of the Church of England, but let boys who do not belong to that Church enter the College and go to their own churches, that would be sufficient?—lf it was a compliance with the trust I should be very pleased to see it; but I have a doubt whether it really would be a compliance with the trust. 55. If Parliament could so mould the trust as to give that right, would you object to it?— No. 56. Would you consent to the provisions of the Education Act as regards the settlement of the scheme of education —that is, if there is a difference between the trustees and the Education Department as to the scheme of education, it, is to be referred to the arbitrament of a Commission consisting of the Chancellor of the New Zealand University, the Inspector-General of Schools, and a third person to be appointed by the trustees, or any modification of that proposal?— One would want to consider It carefully in connection with other things that might be proposed at the same time, and it would then have to be referred to the General Synod. The trustees could only give a recommendation. 57 Would you be prepared to recommend that?— Not offhand.