HONE HEKE.]

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attend the same as day-scholars only," should be struck out, and that the conscience clause should apply not only to day-scholars, but to boarders?—Gf course, naturally, I should say, apply it to boarders; they should be exempt as well as day-pupils. Whoever framed that Ordinance realised the difficulties in regard to religious factions, and made provision accordingly. 20. We heard in Wanganui that no boys are being admitted as boarders in that school unless they attend the services of the Church of England in the chapel: do you consider that right? — No. The main idea of the trust was to impart education in the ordinary sense; but for the spiritual good of the children the teaching of the tenets of the Church under whose control that College was run was a necessary feature, but not to the detriment of children belonging to other denominations. [At this stage the Chairman handed in for inclusion amongst the exhibits a copy of extracts from notes by the Hon. William Rolleston on reports of Inspectors of Native Schools (Exhibit No. 56).] 21. Mr. Lee.] I think you said that, in your opinion, more accommodation is required for such children as wish to receive the benefits of secondary education ?—Yes; I feel strongly something should be done. 22. Supposing the qualification for admission was raised, so that instead of the Fourth Standard qualification at least a Fifth or Sixth Standard qualification was required from the primary schools, there would not be so many candidates for secondary education for a while?—No; but at the same time that would be detrimental to the Natives. The only improvement on that would be my suggestion for the establishment of these boarding-schools at the centres I have indicated. I should like to say that when I speak of higher education Ido not speak of the classical education that most English people have in mind. I refer to the American education that is more on the practical side. 23. You mentioned something about the teaching of trades: I suppose you are acquainted with the Secondary Schools Act? —Fairly. 24. Do you think that in these Maori colleges technical instruction should be given to the boys in such subjects as carpentry and joinery, woodwork, agriculture, horticulture, and to the girls in such subjects as plain needlework, plain cookery, dairy-work, laundry-work, and household management; and do you think that "in addition to the practical work necessary for the demonstration of these subjects, at least half of the total time for which payment is claimed must be devoted to individual practice by the students working with their own hands"? —It is something on these lines I advocate. I would not agree to a lowering of the standard of education at Te Aute, but I would agree to the expunging of dead languages and things of that sort. 25. Mr. Ngata.] In regard to the trust lands on the West Coast, do you know whether the agitation for the return of the land and the discharging of the trusts exists now to the same extent as a few years ago?—Oh, no. In regard, to the two trusts that came before the Commission last year—Porirua and Otaki —of course, naturally, the desire of the Natives is to watch for every opportunity to get the land returned. However, the general wish of the people as a whole is to have the trusts fulfilled. 26. They favour a college where technical education and the teaching of agriculture would be the main features?— Yes, with the ordinary education. 27. In regard to your suggested pooling of the trusts, do you mean you want them pooled under one administration, or do you favour pooling the funds under the separate administration that now exists?—l think the revenue from the different trusts on the West Coast should be pooled together under one trust and administered by one governing body, because these three reserves at Porirua, Otaki, and Motueka were practically given by one people. 28. On the question of free places, do you not think it would be fair, wherever possible, to ask for a contribution in the way of a fee from children of parents who do not belong to any tribe that contributed lands for educational purposes?— Yes, it would be fair if the governing body knows that the parents are able to pay. 29. Out of seventy-five pupils at Te Aute there are from fifty to sixty free scholars, and a small fee of from £5 to £8 from each of these free students would be a material assistance to carrying out a scheme for extended technical education and for classes in agriculture?— Yes. Ido not think the Native parents who know they can afford to pay a fee for the education of their boys and girls will begrudge it. 30. In fact, the Native mind would think it was a fair proposal in regard to those who did not contribute anything towards the endowment of the institution ?—Yes. It is also necessary to strengthen the school itself. George Hogben further examined. 31. The Chairman.] I understand you wish to make a statement in regard to some points of Mr. Heke's evidence?— Yes. I was for some years an Inspector of Schools, and I am thoroughly acquainted with the public-school system of New Zealand. I drew up the syllabus myself, and I have been watching its working. I have personally examined Te Aute, and I have personally examined the Native schools, and I know what they were seven years ago, and I know what they are now. At Te Aute there are forms (sometimes erroneously called standards) as in other secondary schools. Now, these forms do not correspond to the standards of the public schools. The Sixth Form is the highest form at Te Aute. That Sixth Form does work up to the matriculation standard. The Fourth Form does work that corresponds to the Sixth Standard of the publicschool syllabus, or, I may* say, of the Native-school syllabus, because these are both exactly the same. So that you must not take the names of the forms at Te Aute as corresponding with the names of the standards in the public schools and Native schools. That is the first misconception : the same word was used to describe different things. In the Native schools, in all the subjects

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