457

A.—s

of passengers picked up; if you want to impose your own regulations in respect of those two passengers, by all means do it; but if you insist that the whole ship should be altered and hundreds of other passengers affected by your laws so that they suddenly find themselves within the coastal regulations because of picking up a minimum cargo of this sort, I must say that such a requirement is perfectly oppressive. lam glad to have the opportunity of saying so in the presence of Mr. Deakin, who will have a dominant voice, no doubt, in treating us fairly, or otherwise, when this Bill comes before the Australian Parliament. Mr. DEAKIN : May I point out again, that even rf your statement were true, it does not in the least meet the point I was taking. Your complaint only relates to coastwise trade, in this case the carriage of the two supposititious passengers who are to be picked up in the Commonwealth and afterwards landed within its borders. That is the only trade affected. Therefore that is coastwise trade. The qualification that needs to go in, with all your statement- as to " Australian " trade, must be " Australian coastwise trade." The restrictions if imposed would not affect in the least your trade from any part of the world to Australia or from Australia to any other part of the world. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : It is not a verbal qualification. Sir WILFRID LAURIER : Is coastwise trade a necessary corollary to British trade with Australia ? Mr. DEAKIN : No, that is quite separate. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I should have thought it was. lam told by these great liners that it will make a difference of scores of thousands of pounds, and they have to run things very near in competition with Germany and other countries now. It is a hard struggle. It will make a difference of scores of thousands of pounds to them if they are driven out of this trade. Mr. DEAKIN : This coastwise trade ? Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I do not think it is a purely verbal matter Mr. DEAKIN : But you have used the words " Australian trade" a number of times, and when you come to look at the report presented, you will see, that to make your meaning quite clear, it is necessary to put in the word " coastwise." Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : No, I still say, what I object to, in so far as I have any right at all—or rather, what I criticise, is not that you should impose any obligation you like upon British or any other ships that are exclusively engaged in your coasting trade, but that purely because these great oversea liners pick up, may be, a ton of cargo or one or two passengers at one of your ports, and deposit them at the next, all these very onerous obligations should be imposed on the whole ship. Mr. DEAKIN : Whatever those obligations are, even accepting your statement, they are only imposed if you engage in coastwise trade. That is my point—the beginning and end of it They are not imposed at all if you do not engage in coastwise trade. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : I agree—if you do not carry these passengers, very well, you can go on. But that trade is precisely what enables the British

Thirteenth Day. 8 May 1907.

Coastwise Trade. (Mr. Lloyd George.)

59—A. 5.