581

A—s

resolution comes in a concrete form to-day, but it has not come as a new idea or subject at all. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Not the general idea, but the actual proposal. Sir Joseph Ward says you have to commit yourself to an 18-knot service here, and a 23-knot service there. Sir JOSEPH WARD: What I say is this: from the New Zealand standpoint, to-day, we are in this position, that the only mail route which we have for which we give a subsidy to the American Government is stopped. We want to give the benefit of our subsidy to a service through Canada. Ido not think it is possible for a service such as we want to be put into effect without the assistance of the British Government. That is the point of view I take up. You are probably right from .your point of view. It is believed that I am suggesting too fast a speed for these steamers. We launched a steamer the other day to do a portion of our work in New Zealand, to steam 20 knots, which does not get a penny of subsidy. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Where is it running to? Sir JOSEPH "WARD : Between the two islands. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : No doubt there is a big trade. Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, it is, though short compared to ocean voyages. I can give you the ocean passage from Australia right across to Vancouver, to which that argument will not apply. We have a steamer belonging to that service that does - the journey across at 19 knots, the " Maheno." Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Does she run regularly ? Sir JOSEPH WARD : All the summer months, and in winter between Australia and New Zealand. She runs all the time, frequently at 18 knots, and she has averaged over 18 between Australia and New Zealand more than once. That steamer, without any difficulty, could, if required, average over 17 knots. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Here is a scheme which will involve hundreds of thousands of pounds, one way and another. There is a difference between one estimate and another of, perhaps, two or three hundred thousand pounds a year. As far as I can see, you have no estimate of the cost, and we are pledging ourselves to the very route and the very method without even having an estimate of what the scheme may cost. I do not think it is a business-like proposition to ask us to commit ourselves to all the details at the present moment without concerted examination. Sir JOSEPH WARD : We do not propose to commit ourselves to details either What we want as a matter of policy is to try to bring our countries closer to the Mother Country. CHAIRMAN : That is what is done in this resolution.

Fifteenth Day. 14 May 1907.

Mail Service to Australia and New Zealand via Canada. (Sir Wilfrid Laurier.)