37

A.—sa.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE.

Hon. W. M. HUGHES: We cannot stop it; that is the worst of it. There is no way of stopping it; I admit that. Sir WILLIAM LY'NE : That does not restrict me in what I am going to do in reference to the Royal Commission's Report at all. 1 only give that notice because' I want the members to know what I am going to do. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: We do not want to know what you are going to do. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : 1 am sure you do not. The CHAIRMAN : We were discussing the question as to how far tho requirements would be retrospective. The only motion of which notice was given is Sir Joseph Ward's, which is before you, and I think it was understood that before to-day's sitting the shipowners would consider the matter, and" 1 think the Australian delegates also. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : 1 heard someone say so, but my colleagues say they did not suggest that. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I think the President said they would do so. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Someone said so. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I did say so, but as nobody took the slightest notice, I presumed it was not the correct thing, and did not go any further with it. Sir JOSEPH WARD : However, we might probably elicit opinion upon the question just now. Mn. BELCHER : I wanted an opportunity of asking another question, but I was hardly quick enough. It is this The CHAIRMAN : Is that in connection with this motion ? Mr. BELCHER : No. it is -mother matter. The CHAIRMAN : May we dispose of this first? Mr. BELCHER : 1 would like an answer to this question : I want to know if there is any provision in the Merchant Shipping Act which compels a master of a ship which is at sea to render assistance to another vessel in distress which might be in his locality. Sir JOSEPH WARD : I moved this motion with the object of trying to arrive at something which would be a compromise in its retrospective application to this question of altering ships. I am fully in accord with those who desire to protect the interests of seamen, but the difficulty I have is in fixing what is the right course to be taken to compel a ship to be altered which has been built under approved conditions, and which is now carrying out its work. I put this latter portion of the motion in with the hope of getting support all round, because I know we want the concurrence, on a matter of this sort, of all at this table, if we expect to have the Board of Trade as representing the shipping of the Empire, from this end of the world, at all events — if we want to have them act in conjunction with the Colonies and if effective results are to be obtained. For that reason I suggest that where a decision is given by the respective governments calling for any alterations, if the decision is questioned as being unreasonable, there should be an appeal to some authority, and the Supreme Court appeared to me to be the one which was the most impartial. I have a feeling myself, with all respect to other delegates who are here, that the matter of altering a ship retrospectively—altering existing ships —is a serious matter, and that where retrospective legislation is suggested in that direction it requires to be adopted with reasonable safeguards. Therefore there ought to be some qualification. If we could arrive at a unanimous decision upon it, I should expect it to be asked upon. I know we should have ih our own country, at any rate, the support of the shipping trade, inasmuch as they are readily conforming, as far as they can, to the suggestions that have been made. For my own part I think we should try to meet the shipping interests in a matter of this kind even though there may perhaps be a minority with strong feeling against any decision at which we may arrive. I have moved the resolution, because I think it necessary

that improved conditions should be effected, but we ought not to pass a resolution giving power to make a matter of this kind retrospective in its application, without giving any appeal whatever. The CHAIRMAN : Perhaps we had better ask the shipowners to consider this in the interval —whether this resolution of Sir Joseph Ward's is the right point of view, or if not, if they have any alternative suggestion. Mr. NORMAN HILL : We have considered it very carefully, and we fully appreciate what Sir Joseph Ward has said. We feel that as a matter of justice we have got a' very strong case to argue that legislation of this kind should not be made retrospective. We would like, however, to keep the matter a little more open than we think Sir Joseph Ward's resolution keeps it. We would like, sir, to deal with it rather in this way. With regard to existing vessels, the new conditions are not to be applied as hard and fast conditions, but if in any particular case a ship is in fact insanitary, then we agree that that vessel should be made sanitary. We think it nfay be very difficult to effect that object by bringing it strictly in accordance with the new conditions. 1 think it was Mr. Hughes who pointed out yesterday that insufficiency or deficiency in space might be met by improved ventilation, and we would like it left very general. If an old ship is in fact insanitary, then let the proper authorities call upon the shipowners to bring it into a sanitary condition without regard to the new conditions. \\ ith regard to the appeal, we have rightly or wrongly (to my sorrow I have to say it) as shipowners a profound distrust of the courts; they take a long time to give their decisions, and they are expensive, and the appeal to the Court is, as a rule, very little good to us; it is better to shove through the job, and get the ship to sea, lather than await what the Court decides. I think what I suggest is entirely in accord with Sir Joseph's views, and if it would meet with the approval of the Conference, I think we should be quite willing to accept an arrangement of this kind—that the Governments of Australia and New Zealand, instead of imposing new conditions involving structural alterations as regards accommodation, ventilation, and conveniences on vessels built prior to the enactment of such conditions, should require only such existing vessels as have arrangements which are in fact insanitary to amend the same so as to bring them into a sanitary and healthful condition to the satisfaction of the local authority. Sir JOSEPH WARD : Do you put that as an amendment ! Mr. NORMAN HILL: It is hardly an amendment; it covers the same ground as your resolution. Sir JOSEPH WARD : So far as I am concerned, in order to conform to the spirit of the suggestion in that resolution, I shall be only too glad to allow that to take the place of my motion. I have no desire other than to assist in having something done with existing ships. The difference between existing ships and ships yet to be built is so marked that I know, speaking with a full knowledge of the feeling in my own country, we would have very great difficulty in passing retrospective legislation. I am speaking with a very full knowledge of the matter, so for that reason, if the other delegates are agreeable to that motion, I should be only too glad to withdraw my motion and to accept the other. The CHAIRMAN : Shall I read it again—" That the "Governments of Australia and New Zealand, instead of " imposing new conditions involving structural alterations "as regards accommodation, ventilation, and conveniences "on vessels built prior to the enactment of such coneli- " tions, should require only such existing vessels as have "arrangements which are in fact insanitary to amend the " same so as to bring them into a sanitary and healthful "condition to the satisfaction of the local authority." Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I had an opportunity of reading that just now, and I must say that from my standpoint I do not think there is any harm in it as far as we are concerned, because it leaves the matter entirely in the hands of the local authorities, and I daresay the local authorities would see, as far as it was practicable (I know they would), that the ship was altered. It might be very hard to alter a ship, or by an Act of Parliament, or by any regulations to say exactly what those alterations should be in an old ship, and I think if the resolution is sufficiently elastic to leave it exactly to the discretion