A—sa

39

UKI'OBT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE.

Me. COX : You are only asking that Australia should administer the law efficiently. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : No, we are saying that while we have been working under the Merchant Shipping Act we have found that the shipowners, just as is the case here, have not provided those conditions which make for the well-being of the seaman in regard to health. Mr. COX: Have any proceedings been taken? Mr. Hughes points out what is in my opinion a scandalous state of things, but apparently nobody seems to have prosecuted or done anything. I cannot understand it. Mr. BELCHER : Had Sir Joseph Ward's motion gone with the elimination of the last sentence in it, as to th* right of appeal to the Supreme Court, 1 should havebeen prepared to agree to it, but I entirely disagree with the amendment now before the Conference. What we are aiming at is to constitute some authority which is going to see that the sanitary arrangements of the crew's quarters are carried out in a proper manner. It has been stated here that the Merchant Shipping Act has provisions in it for that purpose. The Merchant Ship ping Act might be full of them, but so far as the administration of them is concerned, it has been very, very lax indeed. I iik CHAIRMAN : That is a very grave charge, and we should like some examples. That is a charge against Imperial administration which we should like to have Sofia means of meeting. Mn. BELCHER : 1 make the charge in general terms, and I will not retract one word of what I say, that in nine-tenths of the ships afloat, the accommodation for the crews is not what it should be. Mr. WALTER J. HOWELL : That is a different point. Mil. BELCHER : I know of many cases where paintlockers and store rooms, and many other things which the Act says shall not be contiguous to the crew's quarters, are right alongside. The CHAIRMAN : If you will give us particulars of these cases in which you say the Merchant Shipping Act has not bee-n administered, we shall be happy to look into them Mr. BELCHER: We have found it is almost useless to make complaints with regard to these matters, because no attention is paid to them at all. The law certainly says that certain provisions shall be made for the seamen, in so far as a certain amount of air and floor space is concerned. Provided that is done, the person who examines the place says the crew's quarters are in a fit sanitary condition. lam talking from my experience of what 1 know, more especially from a New Zealand point of view. . Mr. WALTER J. HOWELL : Do you allege that the Merchant Shipping Act is not properly administered here, or in New Zealand ? Mn. BELCHES : I am saying that, so far as my knowledge of British shipping is concerned when I go on board in the colonics, in my opinion the crew's quarters are not adequate. Mr. WALTER J. HOWELL : What do you mean by "British shipping"? Mil. BELCHER : I mean ships coming from the United Kingdom. Mr. WALTER J. HOWELL : A New Zealand ship is a British ship. Mn. BELCHER : At any rate I make that assertion, and can prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. Mr. WALTER J. HOWELL : You must submit your evidence before we can take any notice of the assertion. Mr. BELCHER : I am not in a position to call evidence to prove it. I make the assertion, and if it wants support, you can take the report of the Royal Commission that sat in Australia in connection with the matter. They in unmeasured terms denounced the accommodation.

Mr. WALTER J. HOWELL : To denounce accommodation is one thing. To say the law is not administered is quite another matter. Mit. BELCHER : I take the full responsibility of my utterances, but apart from that altogether the point 1 want to emphasize in connection with this matter is this : that there has been laxity in keeping the crew's quarters in a proper sanitary condition, and I want to lay down legulations whereby that shall be done. That can only be done by legislation, and notwithstanding the opinions held by Sir Joseph Ward and other delegates with regard to retrospective legislation, I do hold—and very strongly —that in every case where improper conditions for seamen's quarters exist, and where it is possible to make alterations and to improve those conditions, it should be done, and that there should be legislative enactment to compel it to be done. The CHAIRMAN : That is really provided for in this motion (Sir Wiliam Lyne has it in his hand), which Mr. Hill originally suggested, and which Sir Joseph Ward acceptcel,—in every case in which in the opinion of the, local authorities the accommodation is deficient so as to make it not sanitary or healthful, they propose to take power to compel that accommodation to be improved. I am speaking without the text of it. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : My objection to that is that I only wish to except the 120 cubic feet clause and not those provisions dealing with the accommodation in general. These provisions regulating sanitary arrangements, ventilation, &c, should apply to all ships. The 120 cubic feet is not to apply to those ships where the Minister is satisfied that it is unreasonable to ask them to make the alterations, because it is obviously impossible. Mu. NORMAN HILL: Does it not amount to this: that Mr. Hughes would be content to have it as put in our Act of last Session? We adopted 120 feet. There was a difference about the mess rooms, but we adopted 120 feet for vessels built after a certain date. It left the old vessels under the old law. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I am not content with that at all. Mr. BELCHER : I am not content either, because as I stated the other day those vessels built within the last j ear or two —the last few months —will live for 20 or 30 years, and if there is no attempt made to improve the condition of those vessels —and I give you my assurance that I have been into the crew's quarters of some of the most recent vessels that have come to New Zealand, and I say again that the conditions there are disgraceful, —the crew's conditions. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Would you allow me now to just read what our Commission recommended in reference to this accommodation ? It is on page 17 of our report, and on this we were unanimous, and it is not a matter, I am sure, that any man who will take the trouble to go through a ship will dispute. If this Conference will only allow us, we will take them through any ships in any port in the United Kingdom, and if four out of five are not as I state and Mr. Bile her says, I will abandon all opposition. It is a rare thing to find accommodation that is really adequate. The evidence given before the Royal Commission by seamen officers was that the accommodation and the general conditions were very bad and that they would not send a dog to sea. and I went down into the trimmers' quarters of a ship lately, where the men, although they were in a comparatively cool climate, were stripped to the waist before they could eat. We went on a ship where the latrine leaked through the bedroom or the quarters of the firemen and the greasers. This is what we say on pages 16 and 17 of our report Mn. FERN IE : Our pages are different. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: You will find it under the heading of "Accommodation." It says here: "In respect of air spa... very few witnesses favoured the re- " tention of the present provisions. Three were in favour "of 140 cubic feet, 11 were in favour of 120 cubic feet, 11 " were in favour of 100 feet, six were in favour of 72 'cubic feet. The medical men, eight in number, were "practically unanimous in recommending a minimum "of at least 120 feet, with such measurement as to " floor space, and restrictions as to the erection and " presence of impedimenta, as would insure the convenience as well as the health of the seaman." Now