51

A.—sa

report nv proceedings ok the conference.

Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Oh. yes. certainly; they do not go to sea by themselves. 1 never imagined that. 'They have a person who calls himself a master. Tin. CHAIRMAN : They never get over in your part of the world. Sir JOSEPH WARD : I will move a motion that each Colony has the undoubted light to make- regulations as to the shipping within its own territory. The CHAIRMAN : We have got it. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : We have passed a resolution to that effect already, Sir JOSEI'H WARD: We cann.it extend n beyond our <>w n jurisdiction. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I do not see tin- ben,-lit of our discussing these matters. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I do, and I will tell you why. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : We have already passed a resolution em this point -that the conditions imposed by Australia and New Zealand as regards manning should only apply to vessels registered in those Colonies, or engageel in their coasting trade. We have been able to give a unanimous decision with regard to that, and if we are going to enter into what should obtain under the Imperial law, it will he going outside our affairs altogether. We shall open up the whole question of the Merchant Shipping Act, and, whilst we are moving slowly now, 1 do not think anybody will live till the end of the discussion that will take place if we do that. It might be alluded to, but I do not think we ought to discuss it. The CHAIRMAN : We do not propose, I believe, to challenge your manning scale in the coasting trade. lie,.. W. If. HUGHES: Will you allow me to show some justification for what I am doing. 1 have here the " Correspondence Relating to Merchant Shipping Regis " ration in Australia and New Zealand." It was this COI respondence that I understand was responsible originally lor the calling of this Conference. In that is set forth at considerable length some criticisms of the principle that I have just now spoken of. Mu. COX : Do 1 understand that Mr. Hughes's remarks are directed to giving recommendations to Great Britain as to what ought to be adopted here? Is that so? Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I do not confine my remarks particularly to Great Britain, Mr. COX : Well, to France, Germany, or anybody else —because if so, we are entering on a rather wide held. The CHAIRMAN : I do not want to narrow the discussion unduly, but the main point is to discuss things that are mutual —where our interests touch. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : If you have no concern with our trade at all, might I just inquire why we are here' — Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : But we passed a resolution saying what we assented to. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : You do not ask us to discuss what laws we shall make for our own shipping? 'The CHAIRMAN : Certainly not, except so far as it touches our own shipping. Hon. W. M. 11l (HIES : Then what do you ask us for? The CHAIRMAN : We want to discuss epaestions of mutual importance—eiuestions which touch both you and us. Hon. W. 11. HUGHES: What is your idea of mutuality? Is it your idea of mutuality to say to us, "We " want so-and-so done by you," and directly I suggest something to be done by you, you say : " Oh, dear me, you must not do that " ? The CHAIRMAN : If you could show us there was an appreciable amount of Australian tonnage engaged in our home trade, then it would come within the sphere of ■discussion. It is because there is a large amount of

British tonnage engaged in the Australian coasting trade that we conceive we have aii interest there. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : On page 31 of this Blue Rook there is a document No. 12—" Shipowners' Parliamentary " Committee to Colonial Office," sth August, 190_ —which sets forth a number of objections to the legislation we propused to introduce. It says here :—" To the extent ■ mentioned in those two sections the Commonwealth "Parliament can alter the Imperial Act'' (that is, Sections 735 and 736 of the Merchant Shipping Act), "but "they can do so no further without a breach of the Con"stilntion, which, of course, cannot and will not be per- " initted." (This is signed "William Milburn, Chairman.") " Not only is the Bill contrary to the- Merchant "Shipping Act. 1894, to which I have referred, but many "of its provisions are, 1 submit, void under Section 2 of "the Colonial Laws Validity Act. 1865,Section 2 of which "provides that any Colonial law which is repugnant to ' tin- provisions ol an Imperial Act extending to the "Colony shall he void anil inoperative. I trust, there " fore, that you will see your way to impress upon the "Colonial Government that the alterations which they " propose to make in the law embodied in the Imperial "Act of 1894 must In- limited in accordance with Sec lions 7:t."i and 731i of that Act." Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Has not that already been agreed to in the New Zealand Act Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Yes; but what we havedecided is, that even if those powers do not exist, and without entering into the argument as to whether they do exist or not, we will try to meet the wishes of Australia and Great Britain. This Conference agrees to our proposal as regards our own shipping. Mr. CON : May I submit that we here do not want to raise constitutional questions. Our object and aim is to let Australia and New Zealand legislate for themselves. Si.t WILLIAM LYNE: I am glad you have mentioned it in that way, because it allays a good deal of what is in my mind if that is to be the attitude of the Colonial Office em the matter of the law we pass. Is the Constitutional question not to be raised so far as the Colonial Office is concerned? Hon DUGALD THOMSON: Speaking of the Con forence, that is. Mil. COX : So far as what I may call strictly Australian trade IS concerned, the policy of the- Colonial Office has always been that Australia should do what she wants for herself. When she comes to apply that outside Australia il becomes a different matter. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: Australian trade may coin,- i.. mean Imperial or British vessels that come backwards and forwards t" Australia. In that case- the constitutional cpiestion might have to be raised. Mu. COX : Certainly it would. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: Rut not as regards purely A usl ralian shipping. Mil. COX : Trading in Australia. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Quite so. The CHAIRMAN : 1 should like- just to call Mr. Hughes's attention to the fact that in sending forward, for communication to the Australian Government, that letter from which he has quoted —the letter from the Shipowners' Parliamentary Committee —the Secretary of the- Hoard of 'Trade saiel that in communicating those views to 1.ui.1 Northcote, "care should be taken to point "out that His Majesty's Government do not altogether "agree with the criticisms put forward on behalf of the " Shipowners' Committee." Hon. W. M. HUGHES: With all deference, that is not information at all ; that is the usual thing with which all Governments carefully hedge about any responsibility for anything they do. But, with deference to you, I submit that they must have meant something. Mn. COX : You are not referring to Australian Governments ? Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Oh, no! Australian Governments mean nothing.