A.—sa

55

REPORT OK PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFBRKNCE.

Siu WILLIAM LYNE : That is not the matter I was going to raise a question about. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: This has not yet been laid before your Government. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: Not the whole of the members. II in. W. M. HUGHES: It might create an impression that it was not a Government Bill. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: Practically it is a Government Rill. 'The matter is in my hands, and except as to certain minor details it is a .Minister's Bill, and it will be accepted. There is another thing that has been repeatedly referred to—the Report of the Commission that sat in Great Britain, it was referred to by one of the members of the Commission. Is there any objection to our seeing the result of that inquiry 'The CHAIRMAN : No, it shall be circulated. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : There were two Committees the Committee on Manning, and the MercantileMarine Committee. The CHAIRMAN : Copies shall 0c furnished to members of the Conference. Mr. ANDERSON: Before having the subject if manning there is one point that might be shortly dealt with. The Australian Bill contemplates the granting of a third class certificate to engineers. Now there are on British ships men rated as engineers, who do not hold certificates. 'The third-class certificate is not known to the Board of Trade, and I want to know what will happen to these men who are non-watchkeeping engineers if they come within the purview of the Australian Bill —that is to say. how will they rank for the purpose of the Australian manning scale? Mil HISLOP : The same as they rank in New Zen land. The Bill was not retrospective, and he was gianted his certificate, and he was allowed a certain time to apply for his certificate. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON ; Was that an engineer on- watch! Mn. HISLOP : Yes. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Mr. Anderson is Hiking about an engineer who is not on watch. Mn. HISLOP : Hi tan take his third engineer's certificate without going to sea at all. His sea service dates from the time of his start as third engineer. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: 1 cannot see how this matter can possibly affect other shipowners. A third class engineer is only permitted m New South Wales. Victoria and one or two other States to take ships under a certain nominal horse-power a certain distance: in cannot trade between states. Mu. ANDERSON : I am not speaking of engineers in charge j I am speaking of junior engineers non-certifi-cateq. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: If vou send a man out who is not certificated, say vou send three certificated engineers and one uncertificated on a ship which bv "in scale requires four, for instance, if you send a ship of the nominal horsepower of 240 to 800 that will require four engineers, and if you send three certificated and one uncertificated that will be a breach of the schedule. Mn. ANDERSON: My point is this, that tin- mm certificated British engineer in such a case would pro bably be as well qualified as your third-class engineer. Hon. W. M HUGHES: But a third class engineer would not be allowed to drive such a boat. • Mi: ANDERSON : I am not speaking of driving—l am not speaking of a watch-keeping e ngineer. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Would he 1„- a mechanic! Mn. ANDERSON : A mechanic, yes. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : The law would not prevent vour carrying such a man. but if the law said you had to have four men on the watch—capable of going on the

watch—supposing you divided your sh p into four watches, each one eit those, if the ship was of 240 to 300 nominal horse-power, would have to be certificated men; but if of 120 to 240 nominal horse-power — if one was a third class mechanic, the law would not stop you. He would not rank as an engineer for any purpose. Mn. ANDERSON : If he held a third-class certificate, surely. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: No, In- would he simply a supernumerary ; you might rank him as a greaser. Here is what New Zealand says—that where an applicant for a third-class engineer's certificate "has worked as appren- " tice for at least five years in a workshop or shops where "engines are- manufactured or repaired, or where other "work of a similar class is performed, and during three "years at least of such service has been employed in " fitting and erecting machinery, " he may be exempt from examination. Mil. ANDERSON : These an- men who would haveserved probably five years in the shops. Sir. JOSEPH WARD : As it will not he possible to-day to go into this question of confining this to tin coastwise trade, I desire to give notice of motion. " That it be a recommendation to the Board of Trade to "consider the desirability of altering the- designation of ' 'officers and engineers' under the- term 'seamen' in the "Imperial Merchant Shipping Act to that of 'officers and " ' engineers.' " 'Til.: CHAIRMAN : Sir William Lyne- has already given notice of a motion bearing on much the same sub pet, and we will put both down for Monday. Could we. before we separate- to-day, just to finish "the manning, take the motion of Sii William Lyne about officers' Hon. W. M. HUGHES: About speaking English? The CHAIRMAN : Yes,—" That no person should be "employed as an officer on hoard any British ship, "registered in Australia or New Zealand, or engaged in ■the- coasting trade of those colonies, who is not (a) a "British subject, and (h) thoroughly conversant with "the English language." Mn. MILLS: Naturalised, I suppose? Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Oh. yes. The CHAIRMAN : Does that mean any British ship trading anywhere—home trade or anywhere? Siu WILLIAM LYNE: That can only apply as far as we have control. Hon. w. M. HUGHES: I should like to suggest this to Sn William, as I have a motion which will definitely raise this question as to whether this Conference ought or ought not lo offer expressions of opinion as to the desirableness of amending the- Imperial law. It might he. perhaps, as well for you n.-t to move that until that is settled, because it is a desirable thing, from our standpoint, that the principle should obtain right throughout the British Mercantile Marine, and a recommendation from this Conference to that effect might have some weight. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON: You have got that in your amended Bill, have you not ! 'The CHAIRMAN : We can accept "(6)" right off. Sin WILLIAM LYNE: " (a) " is th,- important one at least, one of the important ones. 'The CHAIRMAN : If it only applied to vour own waters, ,if course we should have nothing to say. Hon. W. M HUGHES : I will ask Sir William not to i re , M l&at. As to cur own ships, that would be accented light off. ' Hon. DUGALD Thomson : Sir William Lyne is proposing that only with regard to our own vessels. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I am asking hi,,, not to put it now. ' S,u WILLIAM LYNE: I am willing to let it stand over. Mr. Hughes has a motion to define how far this goes. Tin: CHAIRMAN ; Would yon like to have it ,„it in the restrictive sense and leave the other question?.