59

A.—sa

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE.

Sm WILLIAM LYNE : Section 5 of the Constitution. 1 think 1 have made my intention clear. Mr. LLEWELL. N SMITH : Sir William Lyne has explained the object of his motion in a way that seems to remove some, of our apprehensions. But, before we get to it, may we take it that "ships registered in the "Colonies" is to be the first point? Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I think you may say subsection (a), that is ships registered in the Colonies, there car. be no difference of opinion on that at all; that is to say, they must obviously come under our jurisdiction. Mu. LLEWELLYN SMITH : We are speaking here as practical men, and you may find with regard to some of the provisions that you may have a little difficulty in enforcing them. That is a matter for the courts; we cannot decide that. 1 can conceive of conditions imposed on your registered ships on a long voyage that you might have a little difficulty in enforcing; that is always understood, but still, from the practical point of view We have nothing to say to that. If there is a legal or Constitutional difficulty in enforcing the thing, that is no matter. We- arc not competent to say how the courts would decide about particular methods of enforcing conditions. Mu. CUNLIFFE : You may have a vessel registered in Australia, which is simply registered there for the purpose of being registered there; she may have left their waters, and never come back at all. 'Then you will all agree that you must appeal to the Act which can enforce provisions upon that vessel, that is the Imperial Act. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : What we should say is ''with "regard to vessels registered, and usually trading," not "or" usually trading. Sm JOSEPH WARM) : I am going to support the motion as it is. 1 think it is a very important one, and it will meet the reqt..';"3ments as I know them in New Zealand, and is quite in touch with what is required in New Zealand. Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : We have not quite got to that. We are now considering lather as an antecedent to that whether there is anything to be said with regard to the application of Australian or New Zealand conditions to ships registered in those Colonies. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : 1 thought that was agreed to. Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : Only one caveat was raised by Mr. Cunliffe. Hon. W. M. HUQ-HES : 'There is another class of vessel. There is the class of vessel registered in England, entirely trading ir. Australia. Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : We get that in (c). Hon. W. M. HUGHES : To reach that class of vessels, vessels registered in Australia, but trading elsewhere, we shall have io have an excepting clause lower down. Sin JOSEPH WARD: It says "usually trading in " that possession." I think that is all right. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Supposing the- motion to read this way : "That the law of any British.possession shall "operate in regard lo any vessels registered and usually "trading in that possession." Mil. LLEWELLYN SMITH : That is not supposed to be exhaustive; that is only the first category. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Subsection 1 says "Any " vessel registered or usually trading in that possession." Mn (TN 1.1 FI-'E : Assuming the vessels are not vessels which have started on voyages already according to the Imperial Act. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: 1 was really saying that to i net your remarks : ami therefore- under subsection (a) you sc" that tin: law of any British possession shall operate "in regard to vessels registered and usually hading in 'thai possession." I take il that in ninety nine cases out of a hundred thai will apply to vessels that are obviously and notoriously coasting, that is to say, go from one port to another and never leave Australian waters.

Mr. NORMAN II ILL: The point is "shall operate "in regard to vessels registered and usually trading be- " tween ports of the possession." Mu. LLEWELLYN SMITH : I understand that is what is wanted. Hon. W. .M. HUGHES: I said "in that possession." Registered and usually trading in that possession." I am suggesting an amendment of Sir William Lyne's motion. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: 1 prefer to have it "or." Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Of course you do. That "or" is intended by you to include other vessels than those registered. 1 intend not only to include those vessels that art registered, but those registered and not usually trading, Sm WILLIAM LYNE: I want to have the word "or," because it embraces both. * Mb. LLEWELLYN SMITH: It is quite without prejudice. It does not affect the others. Mr. COX : Might 1 ask Sir William Lyne what he means by "or." Does he mean a vessel going backwards anef forwards is to have the Australian law apply after she leaves territorial waters'.' But WILLIAM LYNE : If she comes and trades and is registered and she is under our law. I say Ido not want to disjoin registration from the " usually trading." I want this to apply to both; she can be usually trading, but not registered. Mu. LLEWELLYN SMITH: We want to divide them so as to see how far we can get in unison. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Supposing you suggest this: there are three classes of vessels which 1 intend to include under that suggestion of mine, " vessels legistered and " usually trading" ; those are vessels such as the ordinary vessels belonging to the coastal and Inter-State companies usually registered and continuously tiading in the States. That will include all those vessels. Then we come to a class of vessels that is not registered in the States but usually trades there; and lastly another class of vessel that is registered in some oversea pint engages in oversea trade and incidentally coasts. Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH : That is the third category Hon. \Y. M. HUGHES: And then you might have another class. We had a vessel belonging to the German Australian line. She was registered in Bremen or Hamburg, and she traded continuously on the Australian coast while so registered. That is four classes of vessels. She was detached from the over-sea trade, and she continuously engaged in the coastiqg trade. Then, of course, you get the class of vessel which many of the delegates Dave in their minds, namely, a class like the Orient or the R. & 0., or any other boat that comes to Fremantle and goes to Adelaide cu- Melbourne, and perhaps takes passengers, and may perhaps, in some cases, take cargo — four different classes of vessels entirely. Now 1 suggest the first class be " vessels registered and usually trading." Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : There is no difference of opinion about that. Now what about vessels not registered in Australia, but usually trading? Sir JOSEPH WARD : Have we agreed to any portion now? Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : I think we must have it as whole at the end. W'c arc taking it by stages. Sir JOSEPH WARD: I suggest that we take the feeling of the Conference as to whether they agree- to that first point. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: Refine you put that, I think the whole of this might be overcome by striking out the word "usually": it reads then : "that the- law of a*y " British possession which operates in regard In vessels le-iecl en trading in that possession." Hon. W. M. HUGHES : No; it does not operate. The point js not whether the Commonwealth has power, but whether the Con tnwealth ought to, or whether it is expedient it should make the same law which applies