72

A.—sa

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE.

Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : This Section 8, to which Mr. Hughes refers, only deals, I think, with the rate of wages in the coasting trade in Australian waters. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I am saying so. 'The CHAIRMAN : Does Mr. Hughes now propose that they should be extended to the Fijian trade? Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I say most emphatically, that if your base of operations is in the Commonwealth, then the section applies, of course. It is a contract or agreement to perform some act, or a series of acts, of v/hich one, at any rate, is performed within the Commonwealth. You come into the Commonwealth —you come within the Commonwealth —and certainly the section applies. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : But do I understand, Mr. Hughes, that your argument is, that there is a law in existence which gives the Commonwealth power to fix the rate of wages to the Pacific Islands? Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Oh, no. Mr. COX : In the first place, as regards ships registered in Australia or as regards vessels whose first port of clearance is in the Commonwealth, the laws of the Commonwealth undoubtedly apply, but as regards oversea ships that come and trade on the Australian coast, and then go on to Fiji and the islands of the Pacific, I question very much the right of Australia to apply its laws to those vessels. As to ships registered in Australia, they apply under the Merchant Shipping Act already. But what I do deprecate is, making the Australian conditions apply to a ship that comes from elsewhere outside the Commonwealth and goes to a Commonwealth port. Of course, while she is coasting, she complies with the Commonwealth conditions, but I do not like those conditions being applied when she engaged in a further trade to Fiji and the islands of the Pacific. You might as well extend it to Singapore and so on. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : My argument is not in conflict with that position; because you admit that a vessel that has touched Fremantle first is under Colonial law until she reaches Sydney, and then she proposes to go from Sydney to Fiji. Now from Fremantle to Sydney you admit she should, or ought to be, under Colonial conditions. The CHAIRMAN : If she is carrying goods. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Certainly. That I say is in respect to any contract made to perfoim manual labour in the Commonwerlth —that is to say, supposing she takes on at Sydney any persons to go to Fiji—supf losing she is short of men, undoubtedly, the Colonial aw will apply to that ship, whether she proposes to go to Fiji or whether she proposes to go anywhere else while within our jurisdiction Sir- WILLIAM LYNE : Not within our jurisdiction unless we make it so. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Well, if you like to surrender that right. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I am not surrendering anything. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I say clearly she is within our jurisdiction. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : It seems to me that a great deal is involved in this proposal, and that a good deal of injury, even to Australian shipping and certainly to British shipping, might lie behind it. For instance, how can we interfere with a German or French vessel ? They do now a large trade in the Pacific ; they come on to Sydney with a cargo from the Pacific—how can we attempt to impose our law on those vessels ? The CHAIRMAN : Especially with regard to wages. Taking a German ship, supposing we, here, imposed a condition on German vessels or French vessels, and said, "We will not allow you to carry from a British port "to Spain or Norway or anywhere else unless you pay " the British rate of wages." Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Then it amounts to this : that we are not in the same position. No doubt they could retaliate on jou, but I do not see how they could

retaliate on us, and, after all, you know, all this regard for other people's welfare is merely (with all deference to you, Mr. President) a consideration of one's own interests, and all the time you are thinking "What " will happen to our shipping if we do so-and-so?" But what can they do to us more than they are doing now? The Germans can do no worse than they are doing now. Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : They can differentiate against your trade. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I do not blame them for that at all. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I do not think we really take up this attitude, that we are not to consider how British shipping will be affected. Mr. COX : I will tell you what the result will be. The German retaliation will be on Great Britain. Of course Australia may not mind that. The Germans for that purpose, regard the British Empire as one, and they have already shown that they will retaliate, not on the Colonies so much as on Great Britain —by iaising their tariff on British goods. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : If you go to that, it will go all over the world. We had better stop. If you go to that, they can do it in any case, and we will give them an opportunity of doing it as far as Australia is concerned. Mr. COX : They will do it to Great Britain. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : But that argument will apply to an alteration of a preferential tariff or anything else. If you bring that argument into this, and that is going to have effect, it will destroy altogether what we want. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: If, as a result of this Imperial Conference, you decide to recommend your Government to impose a preferential tariff, what will be the result as regards Germany? Here is a nation, Mr. President, that imposed this restriction; it says to the Norddeutscher Lloyd as a condition precedent to receiving its subsidies, "You must not carry Australian meat, grain, or dairy produce into our country." Mr. DUNLOP : How will this affect foreign ships ? How will it affect our own ships ? There is a large business done on timber-charter by Australians with British ships, in which, under the contract, the coasting trade is excluded with a view of avoiding bringing us under Colonial conditions. I have one ship now chartered, trading from India to Australia, for instance. Supposing they ordered me to go to Fiji. I could not refuse to go. I look at my map, and I see that Fiji is not one of the ports of the Colonies; therefore I could not refuse to go to Fiji; and yet if this were passed, I would be (Obliged to refuse. I should never know where I was. Australia might at once go and include Singapore, Hong Kong, or any other of the British. Colonies, and say, "You must not trade there." We would not know how to conduct our business if such a thing were done. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I would like to ask Sir William Lyne this : German and French vessels trade largely in the Pacific, and American and other nationalities also. If a vessel comes down to Australia with cargo collected in the Pacific and lands it at Sydney, does he mean to say that he prevents that cargo landing unless subject to Australian conditions as regards wages ? Sir WILLIAM LYNE : That is entirely a different position. I do not say that, but what I want is, as far as the trade is concerned between the Commonwealth anil the Islands, that if a vessel comes down, as Mr. Hughes has described, and leaves part of her cargo on the coast or does coastal trade, anil then goes off and trades between Australia and the Pacific Islands, I contend that we should have a right to say what wages that vessel should pay to the men she has engaged in Australia, and under what conditions she should trade if she is going to trade between the Pacific Islands and Australia. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON: Suppose she calls at Australia to pick up cargo. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I do not know that we have a legal right to interfere with her. That is a question of law as to whether we have a legal right to interfere