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A.—sa

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE

as against foreign ships trading in their waters. As a matter of fact, on a ship of the same class running under English manning and English pay, the pay is about half the Colonial pay. A ship's wage bill of £150, in New Zealand would be £300 per month. The CHAIRMAN : I should have thought there would have been a right to dictate the conditions of contract on Colonial soil. Mr. COX : The application of the contract is when the ship gets outside Colonial waters. The CHAIRMAN : I should have thought there was no doubt about the Colony having the right to dictate the teims under which a contract should be entered into. 'There is no doubt it would be enforced in the Colonial Courts. But the whole question is, whether it should be enforced outside. The terms can be dictated by the Colonial Legislature, but there seems to be some doubt about the right of New Zealand to do so. If there is nc doubt about it, I do not see the object of this motion. If the Colonies have an inherent right to legislate with regard to this, I do not see the object of the resolution, because it does seek rather to get the assent of the Imperial representatives and the representatives of the shipowners to a principle which has not -been enforced in this country, and which I do not think is likely to be enforced, at any rate, for some time to come, the principle of a minimum wage by legislative enactment, and, therefore, we could hardly assent to it. And on the other hand, the Colonies hardly want to get the assent of the Conference on a point of this kind. Therefore, from any point of view, I think it undesirable to press the motion. We could not assent to it, and it might be interpreted as an assent on our part to the general proposition that an Act of Parliament should interfere with wages either of seamen or any other body of men. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Will you allow me to say that the motion having been moved, and it having been open to these objections that you have stated, namely, that it seems to have challenged a right that has never heretofore been called into question, yet now you say you could not possibly assent to it—that places us in a curious position. The CHAIRMAN : I do not think I made myself clear. I did not say I could not assent to the right of the Colonies. On the contrary, I thought I made it perfectly clear that I thought the right of the Colonies was above being challenged. But I could not on behalf of the Imperial Government assent to the principle that you should legislate for a minimum wage for seamen. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I think myself that it is extremely undesirable that the motion should be pressed. The whole thing is a question of industrial legislation for the Colonies, and I think that, so far as this matter is concerned, we should only attempt to make it apply to vessels trading on our coasts; we cannot define what we mean by trading here, but no doubt we shall do so, and we could make it apply only to those ships that interfere with the locally registered ships. If we attempt to lay down a general principle here, the shipe wners are doubtful as to how far we shall extend the principle. Speaking for myself, I claim the right embodied in the principle, and I have my own idea as to how far it should be applied. We cannot discuss it here, because we should have to consider local facts. It would not come before the Parliament at all, but the Court of Arbitration, or some similar Court, that would determine its application. Mr. COX : May I ask this : in practice is there any difficulty at all ? These ships to which you will apply this Australian rate of wages will be ships going to and fro from Australia and to Fiji and the Pacific Islands, and they come back in the ordinary course of things. The men have entered into a contract which the law says is to be the Australian rate of wages, and the ship comes back to your port, and so you can enforce it. I do not see how the desire to enforce it in Fiji Hon. W. M. HUGHES : We cannot enforce it on any of the Islands unless the vessels are continuously trading backwards and forwards. Mr. . PEMBROKE : If the Colonies have the right, we cannot help ourselves.

The CHAIRMAN : The right has not been challenged. Mr. MILLS : I understand the right has been challenged. The Colonies have assumed the power. Sir William Lyne quoted the finding of the Arbitration Court of the Commonwealth of Australia. In a case where the officers came before the Court to settle the rate of wages, the award was made for three years, and to apply to vessels going to Australia and the Islands of the Pacific; in the same way the New Zealand Court has applied their awards to vessels not only owned in the Colony but also chartered. Mb. COX : That is perfectly right in New Zealand and Australia, and the Courts have the right to do it; but what you are asking is something more. You are asking that the Court of Fiji should enforce this. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Does the award of the Australian Court apply to American vessels and German vessels and the American mail steamers ? •Mb. MILLS : They do not come under consideration. Mb. COX : Do you want the German Courts and the American Courts to enforce it? It may be very desirable, but how can you stop them ? They won't enforce it for you; you would exclude them altogether. Mb. MILLS : That seems to be a natural consequence. Me. COX : You cannot prevent them engaging in the Pacific trade. Mr. MILLS : You have a case in Australia. The largest company in Australia is practically owned in Great Britain. They also trade to Fiji, and the award of the Commonwealth Arbitration Court applies to the vessels of that company. Mr. COX : My only difficulty is, where is the award to be enforced ? Mr. MILLS : It can only be enforced in Australia. Mr. COX : This motion is asking that it should be enforced, if necessary, in Fiji. Mb. MILLS : I do not see how that can be done. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I do not think the resolution asks us to enforce it outside. All it says is, that we have the right to make such laws as we please as to the rate of wages. Supposing they went out of our juris diction, where they had been paying £7 and elected to pay £2 instead of the £3 15s. or whatever the German rate is, and were sued by the crew for the balance in the Court of Bremen, the crew could not get it. But if they came back and sued in our courts they might, very likely they could. I should like to say that Mr. Justice 0 Connor, who gave that award, held that the award would be binding on all ships within territorial waters. I do not think myself they would ever dream of applying it to those outside, even if they had the power. The CHAIRMAN : I think Sir Joseph Ward's object has been obtained by the discussion. Sib JOSEPH WARD : I should like to say I was anxious to do something from a New Zealand point of view. Australia is content, judging from Mr. Hughes's remarks. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : I am not content. Sie JOSEPH WARD : I did not say you. I was anxious to protect both the Australian and New Zealand shipowners who are engaged in carrying on the trade and who have large capital invested in the steamers, so that they could compete on fair terms with the casual vessels that might go into the trade. There seems to be some statement made as to what our power is. I know we have full powers to legislate for our own domestic concerns; I do not want that aspect introduced. But in view of the opinion of the President that it is a matter that the Imperial Conference ought to consider instead of this Conference, I conform with his suggestion that it should be brought up in another place when the opportunity arrives. The CHAIRMAN : No. 2 I have ruled out of order. In its present form, as appears on the paper, I do not think I could possibly admit it.