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REPORT OF PROOBBDINGS OP THE CONFERENCE

Sm WILLIAM LYNE: Whom would you appoint t.. make that ? Mn. NORMAN HILL : Here the Board of Trade has authority to stop any vessel which by reason of undermanning is. in the opinion of the detaining officer, unfortny. Thai has been enforced since 1897. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : Not in the stokehold. Mn. NORMAN llll.I.: If there is any deficiency in I he- manning of the stokehold which makes a ship unseaworthy. Sin JOSEPH WARD : It is not found out until the ship is at sea. Mil. NORMAN HILL: That is for the Board of 'Trade. Our Parliament has placed Ihat responsibility upon the detaining officer. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : I should like to ask if Mr. Norman Hill can give us a reference to where the Board of Trade has power to interfere with the- stokehold. Mn. NORMAN HILL: If il affect* seaworthiness. W'e- believe thai it would I-- had policy to introduce any system based on manning scales. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: What do you mean by the term " seaworthy " ? Mil. NORMAN HILL: If the- vessel can he navigated with safety to the life and property on board. Sin WILLIAM LYNE: Even supposing one man has to do two men's work? 'Thk CHAIRMAN : The real difference is not one of principle. Mr. Norman Rill, on behalf of the shipowners, admits the principle of the right of the Government to interfere with the manning of ships, but he objects to a rigid scale. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I fancy I understand that. Sm JOSEPH WARD: I wish to ask Mr. Hill if the remarks he made just now apply to the New Zealand shipping law. Mil. NORMAN HILL: Yes. Can VOU and do you apply the scales in your Act to many of the existing types of vessels which are now working? Sir JOSEPH WARD : In our case we- give a minimum only. Mn. NORMAN HILL: You give a minimum, but are there not at the present time many vessels engaged in your trades which could not with safety 1..- worked or. "that minimum—new vessels? In other words, arethere not now many vessels w-hie-h necessarily have to carry much greater crews than you provide fori Sir JOSEPH WARD : We have a minimum. Mil. NORMAN HILL: But if there are vessels now in existence which cannot be safely navigated on your minimum, your Act is a delusion and a snare-. Sir JOSEPH WARD : We insure that under certain conditions not less than a certain number of men should lie carried. If the vessel, in the opinion of the owner or anybody else, should have more, that is all right. All we wish to go for is the preservation of a minimum, Mn. NORMAN HILL: It does not secure safety. Siu JOSEPH WARD : We do not go into the- question of tonnage or anything at all of that soil. Hon. DUGALD 'THOMSON : A certain horse-power? Sin JOSEPH WARD : Yes. Mu. NORMAN HILL: Unfortunately the minimum becomes the; standard down to the point at which it is fatal to development and improvement, and it encourages 1.a.l ship management. Sm JOSEPH WARD : W.- an- s.. content with our laws that I do not want to interfere with them. In .unease it works very well. The CHAIRMAN : I should like Captain Chalmers, on behalf of the Board of Trade, to say a word about this before the debate proceeds.

Captain CHALMERS: There was a Committee appointed by the Board of Trade, which sat in 1894 and and that Committee reported. The majority report and two or three of the minority reports practically supported this in substance, with regard to the manning of the deck : first of all that the Government should pass an amending Act and constitute undermanning as a source of unseaworthiness, as well as over loading and defective equipment and machinery, 'Thai was done.-. 'Then the recommendations of tin- majority report were- adopted with regard to the minimum number of deck hands which should constitute undermanning; that was ihat if then- were a sufficient number of hands on clock, in addition (o the officer of the watch and the master, to he divisible into two watches, having one at the wheel, one at the look-out. ami one about Ihe decks to trim the lamps or do anything that was needed, no vessel which came up to that standard should he deemed unseaworthy. That was adopted, ami the regulations put forward ill a circular by the Board ..f Trade. Sm JOSEPH WARD: I).. I understand Ihat thai applies to cargo and pas-en gel s alike, to all hul emigrant vessels': CAPTAIN CHALMERS: II applies to all except eon grant ships. Sin WILLIAM LYNE: Do yon think that Ihre-e- men would be sufficient on a ship'' CAPTAIN CHALMERS: We who have had control of the largest mere ant ile fleet in the- world consider il answers the minimum of safety—that it comes up to the standard of safety. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: On'.-i d.win ton vessel, or a 10,000 or 12,000-ton vessel' Captain CHALMERS : While that ship is being navigated at sea it does not matter whether sin- is :i.nun ions or 10,000. What we have to consider is such under manning as will cause serious danger Io life, and with regard to the exigencies of navigation, with a hand keeping a lookout, a hand at the wheel, and a hand about the deck, the purposes of safety are covered. vVe have had an experience of over thirty-one years now : we have had the power to detain unseaworthy ships all this time; and our experience- is based upon the constant diminution of both loss of life and property ~ with the largest mercantile fleet the world has ever seen, and we are quite- content with the results. We are quite content with it because, we have a loss of life and property at sea which is proportionately tar smaller than in the ease of any other fleet in the world. Sin WILLIAM LYNE: Do you think they only keep three men on deck ? I know when I was coming here they had more than that. Hon. w. M. HUGHES: llav,- yon done anything with Hie- officers at all ? Captain CHALMERS: With regard to the officers, we have an officer on each watch. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: You do not ch. anything with reference to Cue boats? You do not have a competent person to each boat? CAPTAIN CHALMERS: Among the life-saving appliances which these vessels carry, they have to carry on each side a lifeboat or lifeboats sufficient to carry all persons on board, so that if anything happens to that ship all the crew can gel away in lifeboats. She has to have on each side of the ship a lifeboat capable of ■allying all hands on board. If she- lias a list to one side, and has to be abandoned, there is the other sideavailable. If both lifeboats are- available, they can divide- themselves and go in two boats. Hon. \Y. M. HUGHES : Is a competent person al lotted to each boat' Cw-Tus CHALMERS : That we leave to llu- discipline of the ship when she- gets to sea. We do not inter fere with regard to that because we find it is done in pracf ice. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Has your Department powei io do that by administration, if you like?