135

A.—sa

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OP THE CONFERENCE.

been pointed out by Mr. Thomson are obvious and are real ones. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Are you speaking of compulsory insurance ? Mr. BELCHER : Yes. What should be done, I think, is this, that the Commonwealth Government could, in any legislation that they liked to pass, include seamen under the Workmen's Compensation for Accidents Act, and if they thought it necessary for local purposes to establish an insurance fund, they would be at perfect liberty to do so. There are certainly a large number of men who are permanently located on the Australian coast who would probably feel disposed to join in any insurance scheme. If they feel disposed to do that, by all means let them do so. Sir JOSEPH WARD : May I say the reason why I cannot see my way to support No. "1 " is this. If we insist upon a system of compulsory insurance, it must impose a burden on the person it provides for. Under our law in New Zealand the Judge who assesses the amount to be received takes into consideration all the benefit he receives, otherwise now if you impose a burden on him and he is killed, his family get a reduction on the amount he is entitled to under our la\? because he has been compelled to insure a portion under a compulsory scheme, and I would strongly recommend my friend Sir William Lyne not to get into conflict with the provisions of the Workmen's Act, and any proposal for a scheme must inevitably result in contributions coming from recipients, the sailors, and it is better not to do it. Mr. NORMAN HILL : Docs not the resolution fall under the category of questions that we have not voted on, but left to be settled by each country for itself. So far, Australia has not been very much disposed to ask our opinion or our assistance in framing her own laws; is not this one of the questions on which we have not voted ? It is a question within their own jurisdiction, and in this case we are entirely at one with Sir William Lyne that the best basis is insurance and not workmen's compensation. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : But do you agree with the insurance of lives in case of death from natural causes ? Mr. NORMAN HILL : I think a fair and reasonable insurance scheme would be far juster. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Do you mean for death from natural causes? Mb. NORMAN HILL : Yes. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON: Then no ship going to Australia could go to sea unless every man was examined physically to know if he was fit for insurance. Sm JOSEPH WARD : Do you agree that the Workmen's Compensation Act should remain in full operation at the same time ? Mr. NORMAN HILL : Oh, no. Mb. PEMBROKE : But what we want is a contribution from the Government and the seaman. Mb. NORMAN HILL : You are giving a preference to the big ships over the small, which is not a just basis. We are quite agreed that the men are entitled to it, and we are quite willing to support Sir William Lyne. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : I do not want you to support me to take away any rights they have. Mb. NORMAN HILL : It is a case in which we must each work for ourselves. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I think myself that when you consider that the Commonwealth Parliament has no power to do anything for any other workmen than for seamen practically—because we have not power to make industrial laws and regulations generally—and when you come to consider that in most States there is no Workmen's Compensation Act at all, that the doctrine of a common employment is in force in New South Wales and in other States. I think that one of the effects of the introduction of such clauses into our Bill as would put a seaman on a level with the workmen of Great Britain would be to stimulate the States to legislate for other workmen, who very much want it. I think it is far and away the best

principle, and while I have nothing to say against compulsory insurance, compulsory insurance, in my opinion and in the opinion of those who signed that, was simply only the best way under certain circumstances. The Workmen's Compensation (British) Act, I think, is an admirable piece of legislation. It seems to cover all reasonable risks, and if we want some other sort of scheme to deal with sickness, that could be done quite differently. There is no method at all by which a seaman now can guard himself against risks. There ought to be one, and as it is a risk arising out of his employment, it ought to be made to fall on the shoulders of the person who profits from his employment. The CHAIRMAN : I will now put Mr. Hughes's amendment. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Before you do so, I would like to say I do not want these two to conflict, if there is any danger of it. I must say again that I am strongly in favour of a compulsory insurances schems for seamen, not only against accident, but against loss of life. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Death from natural causes ? Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Yes. I think it is just as right to meet one as the other, because it is a very hazardous life. Mr. FERNIE : And the shipowners to pay for that entirely. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I think they might be left to devise a scheme. I do not mind if the Government pays part for life insurance; Ido not mind at all. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Of course you do not; but will the people of the Commonwealth mind ? Upon whose shoulders does the responsibility properly rest? Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Well, I do not know that it rests entirely on the shoulders of the shipowner. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : There you are entirely in accord with Mr. Hill. Sm WILLIAM LYNE : No, I am not. But so far as the shipowner is concerned, he has to bear his share. But I want to be fair, and I want to see the men protected ; and I want to devise some means by which the men can be protected, because we know that shipwrecks take place and there is loss of life. It is not only the men themselves, but it is their wives and families. And Mr. Thomson says you would have to see that every man had a doctor's certificate. Well, I suppose if he was going to be insured by an insurance company he would have to have a doctor's certificate. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Of course; but you do not provide that every workman shall be insured. Sm WILLIAM LYNE : If No. 1 and No. 6 are going to conflict, I won't say that I shall not move something before we conclude, but I am quite prepared to let it rest upon No. 6. The CHAIRMAN : Then you withdraw No. 1? Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Yes. It seems to be the wish of the Conference that No. 1 should not be carried. The CHAIRMAN : Then will you take it in Mr Hughes s form ? Sm WILLIAM LYNE : No. I think my own is better. The CHAIRMAN : Well, I think the thing has been debated very fully. I therefore put Mr. Hughes's motion as an amendment to No. 6. No. 1 is withdrawn, No. 6 is moved, and Mr. Hughes moves as an amendment • That the Australian Commonwealth Government should ''be recommended to adopt the legislation providing for "compensation to seamen now in force in Great Britain "and New Zealand." The CHAIRMAN then put first the amendment and then the original motion, No. 6, to the Conference, and some of the members voted in favour and some against. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I did not vote. I want to see an amendment which will accomplish both.