A.—sa

152

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE.

he is prevented from going on a ship with a sufficient horse-power to qualify him for attending the examination for the second-class. The CHAIRMAN : This is a purely local matter, and I do not see what on earth we have to do with it. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: The only point is this, it is local, and yet it is general in so far as this, that your regulations have placed our men in a very much worse position than formerly. Formerly they could get from one grade to the other providing they had the skill. Now no skill in the world will pull them through. Mr. PEMBROKE : Send them over here. Hon. W. M. HUGHES . If you will give me a list of how many you want and what you will pay them, I will send them. Mr. HISLOP : There is no difficulty in New Zealand. In the engineering company of which Mr. Mills is the managing director, they have no certificate at all. As they get on they are allowed to sit for their examinations. They start as third engineers, put in twelve months, and then pass to second, and there is no difficulty about it. The CHAIRMAN : All that is required is that the Commonwealth should alter its law to conform to yours. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I should like the Board of Trade to take this into consideration. They have made their alterations in the regulations, but they should not make it apply to those persons who will be prejudiced by the change, but allow all those who have held third-class prior to the amended regulations of 1902 to come up under the old regulations, and then a great deal of trouble would be avoided. The CHAIRMAN : We might consider that. Mr. HISLOP : I should like to say, for the information of Mr. Hughes, we are under a little bit of disadvantage in New Zealand on account of the 66 h.p. for the second-class and 99 h.p. for the first-class. Captain Chalmers says, if New Zealand will represent the matter to the Board of Trade under special conditions, the 66 h.p. will not be insisted upon. Our examiners stick closely to the letter of the law. Captain Chalmers tells me, where it is shown an engineer is competent to pass, they will waive that. I was proposing to ask Sir Joseph Ward to make the representation to the Board of Trade. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Perhaps Captain Chalmers will supply me with the information, officially? Captain CHALMERS : I said if a case were presented to us where special merits justified an exception, we would waive the rule, but I am bound to say very few cases come where special merits do enable us to do so. You give a third-class certificate to a man who has never been to sea, absolutely had no sea-service, and you put him in the position of a watch-keeping officer, and then after he has served twelve months in a vessel under 66 h.p., you want him to be a second-class engineer. We say that is wrong, and for this reason : under 66 h.p. the qualifications are very small for second-class certificates, and the moment you give him a second - class certificate you make him eligible to go as second engineer on the biggest boat in the world. We say that should not be. A man who has been on a 50 h.p. boat is absolutely unfit to have charge of one of 4.000 h.p. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I would be very glad if you would supply me with a formal statement with regard to that. Sir JOSEPH WARD : I would be only too glad to consider sending to the Board of Trade cases where special merits warrant their being sent, and I hope any case we submit will be recognised. Sm WILLTAM LYNE : Mr. President, you have asked us to accept as far as we possibly can anything you do. Now. supposing you pass legislation which will leave an inequality such as will prevent our man, as described by Mr. Hughes, from rising from third-class engineer, will the Board of Trade here recognise what we do?

Captain CHALMERS : We could not recognise your second-class certificate. If a second-class engineer came with your certificate which allowed him before he had had twelve months' experience Sir WILLIAM LYNE : We do not ask that. Our resolution says "third-class engineers having sea-service." Captain CHALMERS : Well, but sea-service in the necessary power boat. Sm WILLIAM LYNE : Our coasting men know more about the sea than those who have gone through the position you have described, because we have a great seaservice along our coast, and those men are in a very unfortunate position at the present time, and I want to be able to relieve them. The CHAIRMAN : Safety of life comes in here. Sm WILLIAM LYNE : We always look after that first. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I may say this, that these men are very competent and are employed in long voyages on non-passenger ships. All we want is practically for you to allow those to qualify who were in possession of those third-class certificates and were just going up for examination when your new regulations stopped them. Mr. HISLOP : There was about two years' notice of these new regulations. The CHAIRMAN : We will see what can be done to meet the case. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Will that be allowed to be considered later on? The CHAIRMAN : Captain Chalmers will consider it, and we will tell the Conference later on what answer we give. Before we come to the resolution for the Imperial delegation I think we might settle when we shall adjourn to. lam told Friday is the only day. Mr. COX : Friday morning. The Colonial Conference sits on Friday afternoon. The CHAIRMAN : I think we might dispose of the rest of the business in a day. Mr. MILLS : I propose, with a view to shorten the proceedings, that no one be allowed to speak more than once on a given motion. Mr. BELCHER : I should like to give notice of motion : —" That this Conference recognise that the Mer- " chant Shipping and Seamen's Act of Great Britain and "the various self-governing colonies be amended so as to " exclude from seamen's certificates of discharge any "reference to the character or ability of the person to " whom such form of discharge is issued ; all discharges "tohe a record of service only. That certificates of com- " petency be issued to all persons employed on board ship _.' for the respective grades occupied ; the production of "such certificate to any shipping officer to be sufficient " guarantee of the man's competency and his right to ship " in the capacity set forth on the certificate." The CTTATRMAN : That is raising an absolutely newissue, and I think we have ruled since the last meeting that there should be no new motions. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : T would suggest that Mr. Belcher be allowed to put it on record upon the understanding that he cannot discuss it. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I am holding back a number of my motions for that reason. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : May I just say a word in respect to that notice of motion of Mr. Belcher's ? I think it is a very important question, because it affects the whole of the Empire. The CHAIRMAN : If it was so important, notice of motion ought to have been given at least a week ago. (The Conference was adjourned till Monday, 29th April.)