I.—lla.

16

[P D LESLIE.

No allowance was made by the office whatever. Mr Larsen thus gets no consideration for that extra amount of nearly £100 that he paid in the fifteen years. There is one other point on which I should like to speak —in reference to Exhibit No. 4. I had no recollection, when this pamphlet ■was submitted to me, of ever having seen it before, because it is about twenty years since we were issuing them, but I admitted it to have been issued by the society If you will look at this pamphlet you will find that it gives the actual results achieved by another office on a policy of £2,000, payable at death, with the profits tontined for ten years. Mr Larsen in his evidence said that he was guided very largely—in fact, wholly—by this pamphlet, that it was on those representations that he was induced to take out this policy Now, Mr Larsen's policy was for £500. It is fair, therefore, in making a comparison, to take one-fourth of the estimate given here. Dividing it by one-fourth, the result that Mr Larsen might expect would be £282 , yet Mr Larsen told us that the agent told him he would get in profits £1,000 and a paid-up policy of £500. I say, therefore, that his evidence is absolutely inconsistent. 3. What you mean is that Mr Larsen's anticipations have not even the support of the pamphlet?'—They have not. I was asked if I could put in a prospectus relating to tontine policies. I told you that I was not quite certain whether I had one. I find, however, that I have one relating to this particular form of policy that Mr Larsen took—a mortuary-dividend policy—and I have pleasure in putting it in. [Document handed in.] 4 Mr Hogan.] With regard to the pamphlet, Exhibit No. 4, are you prepared to say that Mr Larsen would get 103 per cent, of his premiums, which this illustration shows here, under Settlement No. 1?— No, lam not prepared to say that. 5. Are you prepared to say that under this same illustration, method No. 2, Mr Larsen would get 237 per cent, of the premiums that he paid in ?—No. , , , ,• „ 6 Are you prepared to say that under another method here, at the end of the time, Mr Larsen's return would be a fully paid-up policy totalling more than the original amount he would have got if he had died within the period I —No. 7 Mr Buxton.] You do not mention in this pamphlet the name ot the office that achieved the results set out?—l really do not know which office it was. Mr Bichardson (Government Insurance Commissioner) : I think it is an example taken from the experience of the Equitable Office of the United States. Witness At the close of my evidence on the first day Mr Hogan asked me whether my society had sent Mr Larsen a bonus certificate for £25 recently, and I said " Yes.'' He made no further comment. I should like to ask Mr Hogan through you, Mr Chairman, why he asked that ques>n 'The Chairman: Ido not think I can ask a member of Parliament to answer a question like that It is quite open to you, if you have given such a payment, to state why you did it. Witness ■ The reason why I mentioned the matter is this : Mr Larsen spoke to me about this £25 and said " Oh, yes! the society gave that as a sop." I want to show that this bonus that was given to Mr. Larsen quite recently was an exactly similar bonus to that given to every policyholder in the society whose policy was entitled to participate. An investigation into the society b affairs was made for the quinquennium ending the end of last year, and the results showed that the position had improved so immensely that we were able to give very much better bonuses. Mr Larsen participated in those bonuses on exactly the same basis as any other policyholder. 8 The Chairman.] Was this paid in cash?— No. It is a reversionary bonus. 9' Mr Bichardson.] Was it a retrospective bonus—relating to the period about which Mr Larsen is complaining J— lt related to the past quinquennium only 10 Mr Allen.] When did the tontine period end /—ln 1908. ll' Then a part of the quinquennium was during the tontine period. He had not got to the ordinary policy? —No. , , 12 Did he get a bonus, then, on the tontine period <—Xes. 13. Did all the other tontine-policy holders whose tontine policies had run out during that five-years period get the same advantage? —Yes. _ ..,.,. • j. 14 The Chairman 1 Then, would those people who closed their connection with the society during'the period receive anything ?—Only those would participate whose policies were still m f ° rCe is Mr Fraser ] This £25, then, was paid in conformity with the practice of the society and in accordance with its tables, and not as a special sop to Mr Larsen I—That is what I contend Mr Hogan There is no suggestion that it was a sop to Mr Larsen. I did not intend that to be inferred. I wanted to ascertain if Mr Larsen was still insured. I should like now to know under what system Mr Larsen gets this £25 bonus. It appears that he gets that bonus on five years three of which were under the tontine policy and two under the ordinary one. 16 The Chairman;] I suppose, Mr Leslie, that each policyholder is entitled to a share of all profits that are available under his particular form of assurance I—That is so 17 Mr Allen 1 I understand that Mr Leslie says the principle is that they are to participate according to the character of the policy For two years this policy was an ordinary policy, receivh7 he ordinary bonuses, and for three years of the five it was a tontine policy, entitled to tontine benefits bu not to bonuses. Has the society given to this man and to others not only the benefits of The tontine during the three years, but also the benefits of bonuses or five years ?-I explained to v7u previously how the tontined profits were allotted. At the end of every five years the profits are ascertained for this purpose, but the policies are not split up The same amount is allotted to each! But in addition, the tontine policies are credited with their share of the profit arising from deaths lapses, and surrenders over that period. They get that in addition to what the oXary picyholder gets. For the last quinquennium, of which I am speaking, every member