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23 May, 1911.] Imperial Council. [Ist Day. Sir JOSEPH WARD—cont. case there, and that we New-Zealanders recognise that the great silken thread which binds us all together is based on sentiment; they all recognise the tremendous importance of that, and so do L But, in my opinion, that is not sufficient. I want to call attention to what the position in Germany was not so many years ago, quite within the knowledge of everybody around this table. When they had their separate militant States existing there, that country was not nearly as strong as it is to-day. The federation of the States has really created the Fatherland, and it has made Germany a great Power compared to what it was before. Tn my opinion, too, the same thing applies to the United States of America; it applies to the great Dominion of Canada; it applies to the Commonwealth of Australia. They are all immensely stronger as the result of federation. It certainly applies to the United States of America, and we have examples in those countries where, while preserving the rights of the individual States and the full control of the legislation that exists in them, we find them very much more powerful through co-operation : there is more cohesion and more strength, from any point of view you like to name, than was the case before that alteration Avas brought about. The difficulties surrounding a proposition of the kind I recognise, and I want, in trying to deal with an important matter like this, first to look at the difficulties and see if they are insuperable. I fully realise that the proposition I am about to make may be open to the most destructive criticism from the point of view of those who do not see eye to eye with me regarding them. The PRESIDENT : If I may interrupt you for a moment, am I not right in saying that the instances you have just given us are instances of continuous territory surrounded by what I might call a ring fence ? Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes. Of course they are all continuous areas undivided hj oceans. The PRESIDENT : Germany and the United States of America. Sir JOSEPH WARD : They are instances of continuous territory surrounded by, figuratively, a ring fence; but I want to point out, Mr. Asquith, with all deference to you, that there is no parallel in the world for the position that the British Empire occupies to-day; there is no place where British territory divided by thousands of miles of sea is the area in which alterations have been made, nor, as far as I am aware, is there any precedent that can be used as a parallel for those oversea countries whose existence to a very large extent is part and parcel of the great Old World itself, and whose circumstances are chiefly dependent upon questions of Imperial defence and their relations to foreign policy, which affect them most vitally, although they have no voice within. There is no parallel to the position which the British Empire occupies to-day. I was endeavouring to explain regarding what these countries had done: that though they are landed territories, their federation, beyond all question, materially strengthens the whole of them. The difference between them and us is that we are British territory with independent government, with independent people of the same race and with the same aspirations, but our position is such that we are divided by great distances of ocean. Unless, however, we do something in the direction of having co-operation in times of peace, particularly with a view to our protection in times of war, unless we recognise the tremendous responsibilities devolving upon us in those respects, then a comparison with any of the landed territories has perhaps no special bearing on the point, and my argument loses its application, but I hold the mere fact of our comprising both sea and land does not get over the fact that we are still one Empire. Here I want to recall the circumstances in connection with the meeting of the representatives of the 13 States of America who for months met in the different States and finally overcame their difficulties. Those difficulties were, in my opinion, greater than those that confront us to-day. They devised a scheme of federation or co-opera-