E. 11. HAIiBY.J

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iii. Compared with the land on the opposite side of the river—Stubbs's, I think it is oalled —which the company bought, is it the same class of land? Is it inferior or superior. to that? I should certainly prefer the Mangapapa side. 178. It is more valuable than the Mokau-Mohakatino?—Much more, in every way. 179. There is a good deal of talk about the coal outcropping on the Mokau Block : have yon seen any of it at all? —Yes, sir, I made a special trip up the river. In order to acquaint myself with the physical features of the ground pecially with regard to the coal. I got a launch and with about twenty Natives weni up the river. They bad a large lithograph of the property, and I made a topographical plan on that as I went up the river. I noted particularly all the portions of lower ground that might be used to establish a homestead, and I went ashore there to ascertain the state of the ground. The only places where I could go ashore were those parts that had been leased in years past and were being worked, or otherwise, by the lessees. 180. There were workings there? —Yes, there was one place working. That place belonged to Mr. Kelly. I also wen< ashore, I think, Henderson's. 181. Was there any considerable output from these workings, or were they simply testing the coal? —I am not speaking of the coal at all :I am speaking of the clearings, from an agricultural or pastoral point of view. That was m route. I investigated all I could, because one could not land where the bush came down to the stream. 182. You have not given us your opinion as to the mineral value?—l can only judge from what I caw. 183. And what was your judgment from what you saw?— When I got within about 20 chains of the coal-mine I saw a stratum of what I took to be sandstone, perhaps 100 ft. to 120 ft. high, on the opposite bank of the stream—the Mangapapa side I noticed that it had been completely cut off: there was a perfectly sheer, perpendicular wall, both on the western side and the southern side; and that struck me as being a very peculiar circumstance. It was made more peculiar when I saw alongside the river, coming down into it, the same formation, standing up about 70 ft. —perpendicular sandstone. I was perfectly certain that a heave or a fault had taken place in the country, and that the part on the Mokau-Mohokatino Block had sunk down below the river. When I got up to the coal-mine, just round the corner, I found that the entrance to the drive was about 35 ft. above the water, and then I was quite sure that the part of the coal on the other side was down under the water. That was the conclusion I came to from the geological formation of the country : I had never seen any report about it. I did not expect to see rhyolite down there, because the place for rhyolite is at the tops of the mountains, unless there is a fluviatile sandy deposit. So I was quite satisfied that the mass that stood up before me had come from the other part a little further off. I landed at the mine to inspect, and went all through it. I saw the plan, and I was quite satisfied that my view was correct. 184. Mr. Herries.] That is not on the Mokau Block? —No, on the Mangapapa Block, just across the river. 185. Hon. Sir J. Carroll.] If you had been in the place of the Natives, in view of all the circumstances —the invalid title, and the length of the unexpired term of the lease, and taking the rents the Natives were receiving into consideration, would you have sold for £25,000? —I thought myself that £25,000 under the circumstances was a very big price—a very fair price. I will give my reasons. Supposing I value the land altogether at £1 an acre and there are 50,000 acres, that is £50,000. Now, Mr. Herrman Lewis has a lease for another twenty or thirty years. Assuming it is for twenty years, the true present value of that money at 5 per cent, for twenty years is only £20,000, at simple interest. But the Natives were getting £25,000. So under the circumstances, and seeing that they were only rereivincr about jd. an acre rent —which might have lieeTi increased perhaps at the second term— l thought they were getting a very fair price. Not only that, T thought that if the lease went on that place would be locked up for another thirty years, and there was nothing but destitution amongst the Natives at the time : they had made nothing out of their land, and I thought thai now was an opportunity for them to make something out of their land. T thought that the £25,000 under the circumstances was a very fair sum indeed. 186. At the critical moment, when the question was being decided and the terms agreed to, whose shoes would you have preferred to be in—the company's or the Natives' I—l1 —I would not have paid that money for it myself. I might have got more than that back after going to a lot of expense: but I considered that the cost of roading alone would be a very big item indeed, and I think it still will be. But another matter presented itself to me, and that was this : I had seen the Tourist Department's plan of the river, and I noticed that it was proposed to cut off the only valuable part of the whole block. Wlien the Hon. Mr. Thomas Mackenzie was up there I mentioned the matter to him and said the Mokau Block would be absolutely ruined if the proposals were carried out. As I say, I was quite satisfied the Natives had got a very fair price indeed, and T would not have given that money for it—not half of it. 187. Mr Massey.] Do you think you could buy it for double the money now?—lf the company is wise it will sell very promptly. I know that what lam saying now may be prejudicial to the company, but I am obliged to say what I think and give my reasons for the faith that is in me. I may be quite wrong. 188. Hon. Sir J. Carroll.] Mr. Bell in hie evidence referred to the change that was taking place in the minds of the Natives from the position of probable litigants and anti-sellers to acceptance or consideration of proposals to sell, and he said he could not account for that change, but he suggested that there were possibly certain influences at work. Now, to your own knowledge the Change in the minds of the Natives was based only on their inability to carry on any action with regard to their block —I mean, to finance for that purpose--and on the position they wnro m at the time? —That is the position.

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