115

I.—3a.

h\ O. DALZIELL.J

118. Was it in English ?—lt was translated into Maori. 119. Mr. Herries.] Did you consult at all with Mr. Bowler with regard to carrying out the agreement? —Not before the meeting. 120. Did you at any time?—At the meeting we did. We went fully into the terms of the agreement at the meeting. 121. Officially] —Yes. We had no consultation, 1 think, before that. 122. Which meeting are you alluding to?— The first meeting. 123. Did Mr. Bowler fall in with the arrangement that the land was to be transferred to liini ?—The first suggestion was that the Public Trustee should be made trustee. It began in this way: we first of all desired that the Maori Land Board should accept the office; and 1 think I then suggested, the Board being a statutory body and there being no express provision in the .statute empowering it to take up this trust, that there might be a technical difficulty in the way; and therefore the Public Trustee was fixed upon. But when we came to thrash it out thoroughly ii was found that the inconvenience and cost of having the Public Trustee in Wellington and the Maori Land Board in Auckland would be too great. 124. Who was it suggested that Mr. Bowler himself should be the trustee?—l urged him to take the trusteeship. 125. Before the Board or privately ?—Before the Board at the meeting in Auckland. 126. At the time of the confirmation? —Yes. 127. With regard to the confirmation, the resolution proposed was that there should be a sale to Herrman Lewis? —Yes. 128. And that was confirmed? —-Yes. 129. Has there been a sale to Herrman Lewis? —Yes. 130. Has it been carried out —the transfer is to Mr. Bowler J —The agreement for sale is between the Board, on behalf of the Natives, and Mr. Lewis. 131. The actual transfer is from the Board to Mr. Bowler? —That is right. 132. Is that strictly legal?— That is the usual method. Any purchaser of land under an agreement is always entitled to sell to whom he pleases, and to compel the vendor to transfer to whom he pleases. 133. W T ere the Natives aware that the actual purchaser would be different from the one named in the resolution? —Oh, no; the Natives went out at once. The moment the agreement to sell was executed they were out of it. 134. The Natives might care to sell to one man and not care to sell to another? —But having agreed to sell to one man, they were bound to transfer to whoever that man asked them to transfer to. They were legally bound; the law requires it. 135. Then it would be quite allowable to have one man named in the resolution and another man the purchaser ?—Yes, that is an everyday transaction. 136. I suppose the Government were aware that this was proposed to the President of the Maori Land Board? —-Yes. He did not take it without reference to Wellington. He referred it, I understand, to his Head Office and the Solicitor-General. 137. I suppose that you yourself or Mr. Skerrett had communicated these proposals to the Government? —I am not sure that we did refer the agreement. Probably we would, but I do not remember referring it to the Under-Secretary. Mr. Bowler, however, sent it to him. 138. About the money : Mr. Lewis told us that he got £71,000 in cash and 400 shares? —Yes. 139. But in the transfers there is .£25,000 given in consideration of the freehold and £54,700 for the leasehold? —Yes. 140. That makes a total of £79,700?—Ye5. 141. Can you explain it? —Yes. The reason is that the transfer was direct to Mr. Bowler, as trustee for the company in respect of all the land but the 7,000 acres, and as trustee for Mr. Lewis in respect of the balance. The consideration stated in the transfer therefore had to cover the consideration payable by the company to Mr. Lewis, as well as the consideration payable by Mr. Lewis to the Natives. You will find that those are the figures. 142. Did Mr. Lewis get £79,700 and the 530 shares?—No; he got £71,000 and 400 shares of £10 each. 143. Whom did the balance go to? —To Mason Chambers. 144. Mr. McNab told us that the company bought for £85,000? —I understand so. 145. These considerations only give the sum of £79,700. What happens to the balance there, £5,300? —The transfer to Mr. Bowler, which I have here, only shows the consideration £25,000. 146. That is for the freehold ?—Yes. 147. And 530 shares? —250 shares. 148. It says 530 shares here? —250 I think it will be in the transfer to Mr. Bowler. 149. You say the difference between £85,000 and what Mr. Lewis got would be Mr. Mason Chambers's profit? —Yes. It was a very involved transaction. When the settlement took place Mr. McLean, representing Mr. Chambers, and Mr. Loughnan and I were present, and the whole matter was worked out in as simple a way as we could. I think the considerations have been correctly stated in the deeds. 150. But those considerations total £79,700, and Mr. McNab stated that the total sum paid was £85,000 — a difference of £5,300. I see : that will be the 530 shares. Mr. Lewis got £71,000 and 400 shares. The balance is the profit that Mr. Mason Chambers made, I suppose?— Yes—ats —at least, Ido not know that he made that profit out of it. There were a lot of people— 151. Was Mr. Lewis entirely " on his own," or was he representing other people?—As far as I know he was the sole owner. 152. Did Mr. Bowler give Mr. Lewis a deed of trust?— Yes. 153. What are the conditions of the trust?—l have a copy of it here —in fact, the original. If you desire it I can put it in. The operative part is as follows : (1.) " The trustee hereby declares that he stands possessed of and entitled to that portion of the said lands described in the first