I.—3a.

136

[t. w. fisher.

91. There is no difficulty? —The Government can go to the Compensation Court to assess the value. 92. In this case the lease might have been determined? —Yes. 93. And compensation paid?— Yes. 94. And all the difficulties would have been removed?—l would not like to say that. The difficulties would have been removed as far as the title was concerned. 95. I think you said that several other Orders in Council had been issued to allow the Native Land Board and the Natives concerned to get over the limitation provisions of the Act? —Yes. 96. Can you give us any idea of the areas in such cases, or the number of Orders in Council? —There have been thirteen for certain, if not more. 97. Since the passing of the Act of 1909? —Yes. 98. Can you give us any idea of the areas in such cases?— They have varied from 1 acre to 8,000 acres. 99. Where was the 8,000-acre block?—Rangitoto, part of D'Urville Island. 100. What was the object in issuing the Order in Council in that case?— The Order in Council was issued because the solicitor acting for the purchaser of the lease considered it necessary. 101. Mr. Herries.] lhat would not be under the 1909 Act?— That is the subject matter for argument in the case thai is now before the Court. They say that the provision of section 193, Native Land Act, 1909, applies to all prior transactions. 102. Mr. Masse?/.] Was that done under the 1909 Act?— Yes, the Order in Council was issued under the 1909 Act. 103. Then the Order in Council was issued since the passing of the 1909 Act for the alienation of a block of 8,000 acres? —Yes. 104. What was the value of that block?— About 7s. 6d. an acre. 105. And that is the largest transaction that has taken place by way of Order in Council? —Yes. 106. Do you know of any other case where a speculator was allowed to purchase a big block of land in this way, even if it happened to be less than 8,000 acres?— No. Of course, when people apply to Boards for an Order in Council they will noi say they are speculators. Ido not know that Mr. Lewis is a speculator. 107. Is it customary to have Orders in Council issued to enable speculators to purchase in the way Mr. Lewis has purchased the Mokau-Mohakatino Block? —I am not aware that Mr. Lewis is a speculator. If he says he is, well and good. 108. Hon. Mr. Ngata.] Is there any other case like the Mokau-Mohakatino in the Dominion? —Not that I am aware of. 109. Mr. Massey.] Is it intended that the payment made by the company who own the land to Mr. Bowler as trustee will be paid to him in addition to his ordinary salary? —I mentioned that Mr. Bowler pays that into the Public Account. Then it will be for Cabinet to decide what he is to receive. I have not gone further into the matter on account of this inquiry. 110. You do not know what Cabinet propose to do in the matter? —It has not gone before the Minister yet for consideration. 111. I think I heard you say that Mr. Bowler will receive travelling-expenses as well as the £5 a month?— l was speaking of any work that the Board or Mr. Bowler might be called upon to do in connection with the block. If they are called upon by the owners of the block to go there for any purpose, their expenses will be paid directly by the block. 112. Do you not think it is a very unwise position for the President of the Board to be placed in?— The main question was whether it was not advisable in the public interest to try and settle this matter in the way which was followed. I think, myself, the best thing was done under the circumstances. 113. Do you not think the proper way to have settled it would have been for the Government to acquire the block? —No. 114. Why?— Because there would have been no end of trouble and worry later on. 115. Thai is an indefinite sort of statement? —I presume that if the Government had bought it there would have been trouble in going to the .Assessment Court, and any number of ideas as to the value. 116. Surely there is not much trouble in going to the Assessment Court? —The land would not have been settled with the despatch with which it should be settled tinder this arrangement. 117. Is not the Department able to settle land as well as speculators?-—The position is altogether different. 118. Do you not think that the Lands Department could have settled the block as well as the Mokau Land and Estate Company? — I do not think I should be asked to comment on the administration of the Lands Department. The Chairman: I rule that question out. You are pursuing the examination too far, Mr. Massey. 119. Mr. Merries.] Does Mr. Bowler refer to the Department now with regard to his actions in these transactions as trustee?—No, I have heard nothing further from him. 120. He did not refer the question as to whether he should mortgage the land?— No. 121. Are you aware that lie has mortgaged the land? —Indirectly I am. 122. He would not have to get the approval of the Department with regard to matters of that kind? —Any proposals would be a question for me to submit to the Minister. I would not take the responsibility. 123. Has he a free hand to do exactly as he likes? —He has a free hand, practically, under the trust. The trust sets out his duties. 124. Hon. Sir J. Carroll.] He acts entirely under the deed of trust?— Absolutely.