1.-38.

4

!~C. L. PEMBF.RTON.

34. Hon. Sir ./. CarroU.] Were yon one of the original tenants ? —I was. 35. When the land was put up you were aware of the terms and conditions upon which the sections were offered to the public ? —Just so. 36. You bought under those conditions ? —Yes. 37. You said just now that the only way you can see of acquiring the freehold would be by the Government buying from the Natives ?—Yes. 38. That the Government should buy from the Natives in order to sell to yon ai the price they gave the Natives ?—Just so. 39. You would be the principal consideration in that way ? —-Yes. 40. Would the Natives benefit by the sale of the land ?—I think they would. 41. In what way ?—By receiving the rental value. It would be invested for them, and they would not get the principal. 42. That might be done with the rent ?—Yes. Well, they would always receive the rent. 43. Supposing the whole of the rent were funded for them and they L. r ot the ml crest on it —I mean the accumulated rents for twenty-one years ? —Yes, well 44. Under the leasehold system would not the Natives benefit at the end of the term ?—Yes. 45. Would they benefit as much as if they sold now at the present price i- Probably not. 46. Then what you advocate is something that would benefit the tenants more than the owners ? —If we go on as we are. we are working for the owner and not for ourselves. We an- working to improve his property. 47. He is the owner, is he not ? —Yes. 48. You want to be the owner?—He is the owner, but we are working to improve his property. You see the disadvantage we are under in roading. 11 you are willing to road the lands for us, that does away to a great extent with this difficulty, you an- not giving us value for our improvements. Our roading is as much an improvement as improvements actually put on the sections, and we want full value for that, otherwise it is confiscation. We are doing something for which we are getting nothing. In that case, of course, the Native owner stands to benefit. 49. In which case ? —Under the present conditions as regards roading. We are increasing the value of his land, and he is doing nothing to help it. Before we see the land we pay down rent, and we continue to pay it. In the case of Government lands situated as Ohotu is placed, settlers go in with four years' rent free, and they get the roads made for them. 50. You knew when you took the land up that you had to pay rent ?—Yes, but we perhaps did not realize all the disabilities under which we would be working. You might go into a paddock and think you are perfectly safe, and look all round and think there is nothing there that will hurt you ; but there might be a bull behind a furze bush, and under those conditions you vwnild be very anxious to get out of the paddock. 51. Has the goodwill of any of these leases been parted with ?—Yes. There were a number of leases taken up in the first instance by Natives, and they were held for a number of years, to the detriment of progress. Those have all been sold out, 1 believe. 52. Have any of the European tenants sold at all ? —There is one. Ido not know of more than that. 53. Did he sell at any depreciation of value j He gol paid for his improvements. Ido not know whether there was any depreciation or not. 54. Supposing there are cases where the original tenants have sold out— sold the goodwill of their leases at a considerable profit: it is fair then to assume that somebody has been quite satisfied with the conditions ? —There was a section sold, I believe on the 27th, in Wanganui, and I heard that the man had given 4s. 3d. an acre for it. But I know the man, and he knows no more about land-values and working land than does a Socialist. That is new-chum valuation. A man may go into Ohotu and give far more than the value of the land ; but that is no criterion of the value of the land. 55. But allowing that he is a practical man—a man used to farming : if he buys the goodwill of this original lease at a considerable advance, would it be reasonable to assume then that he is satisfied with the terms and conditions ? —He may be : but there are farmers who are continually falling in. Farmers who come from another district think they know all about land-values. You do not know anything about land-values unless you reside in the district and are aware of all the conditions. The only man who is competent to value land is the man who is actually living on it. It is no indication of the value of the land when a man goes in and gives a high price for land in a new district. 56. Perhaps you know that these lands are vested in the Board in trust ? They are trust lands ? —I do not know how they are situated. 57. All that appears to you, in regard to the whole question, is the advisability of the freehold in favour of the tenant ? —Well, the tenant wants a square deal, and that, I contend, he is not getting under the present conditions. If you make the terms equal so that the tenant will benefit in the same degree as the landlord, perhaps we cannot object so much. But certainly the present conditions are not fair. 58. What does it require to square the deal ?—We want to be assured that we shall get valuation for improvements, and we want roads. There is always an uncertainty as to whether you will get valuation for your improvements. I know by past experience that valuation is not given, even by the Government. I have known improvements not to be recognized which were improvements. 59. But you know on what system the improvements are to be determined and assessed, do you not ? —I know that we have the power to appoint an arbitrator, but that is not altogether a guarantee. 60. Each side appoints an arbitrator, and the two appoint a third. Can you tell me any fairer system of arbitration —any fairer system of arriving at the assessment of improvements ?—Supposing I fell the bush now and it costs me so-much. In twenty-one yeaTs then- will be an improvement in