I.—6a.

10

B. W. MCVILLY

70. So that if one officer is transferred or retires who is receiving a salary of, say, £400. and another man is placed in his position to do the same work at an inferior grade, he continues to get the salary of his own grade though he is working himself up to the higher grade of his predecessor?— That does not always follow. As a general rule it does not follow. As a general rule a man is promoted. There are exceptional cases. I quoted it case yesterday, but while in that connection one man was put up another position was created —the Department saved nothing. Another position which had been paid at a lower rate was simultaneously created and put in a higher grade. 71. Well, under this system it is not possible for the Department to bring about a general reduction of salaries without apparently reducing the salaries id' tiny specific officers?—l think it must be recognized that there must come a time when everybody attains to the maximum, and then promotions can subsequently only be made when the position is of sufficient value to warrant it, and so your supposition is not correct, Mr. Arnold. We will take 1907 :we had. 86 men in the grade £260 to £300. I will now confine myself to 1907 and 1910. In 1907 we had 86 men getting from £260 to £300, and in 1910 we had 75. From £315 to £355 there were 33 in 1907 and 41 in 1910. From £370 to £650 there were 34 men in 1907 and 41 in 1910. Over £650 there was 4in 1907 and 7 in 1910. I think that shows there is no tendency to pull down, but that the tendency is to put up. 72. I did not say there is a tendency : I say. such a thing is possible?—lt is not at all likely. The practice and tendency is to put up all the time. 73. But it is possible?—lt is never done. I know one particular case in which the circumstances were special. I have just explained in connection with that thai we put one man up and created another position, which equalized matters. 74. Mr. Witty.] If every man who is at the maximum in the one grade is moved into the next grade, does he start at the minimum in the next grade?— Yes, he must. 75. But not if lifted over a grade and put in that position. If he goes direct from one class to another he starts at the minimum ?—Yes. 76. But if he starts at two classes below and is put into that posiiton he does not start at the minimum, but starts at the one in between ? —Yes. 77. The Chairman.] That is to say, if a man is promoted from the eighth grade up into the sixth, for argument sake, he would draw the salary of the seventh } —Yes, he would work through in probably two years. 78. Although he would be filling a sixth-grade position?— Yes, for the time. 79. I think an instance was mentioned of that by Mr. Dennehy at the Bluff? —Yes, and the Bluff man has to work through the same as his predecessor. 80. Is not that an admission to a certain extent that there are frequently more men qualified to fill higher positions in grades below those who really should fill those higher positions?—lt does not frequently happen, but we know it does sometimes. 81. There was one instance mentioned by Mr. Dennehy where a man was appointed to a certain position, and your reply was that if he was not satisfied with it he could have declined to take it?— Yes. 82. If he had declined to take it would not that have meant that he declined promotion?— In his particular position I do not think it would have affected him at all. 83. But generally speaking?—lf a man declined promotion he would lose position-, but so far as the man in question was concerned it would not have meant declining promotion, but merely a transfer. If he had been in one class and was going to another that would have been promotion, and if he had declined that it would have entailed forfeiture of promotion for two years. 84. Cenerally speaking, if a man is offered a position, and he feels that he ought to get a higher salary on accepting that position, there is nevertheless a tendency on his part to accept the position rather than decline promotion?— Well, they do not regard it as promotion when it is merely a transfer at the same sum. The general practice is for the man to ask. 85. Even if the position, is a higher one? —Yes, they will ask whether it is likely to lead to promotion, and they are told Yes or No, as the case may be. 86. Then, in connection with Schedule A, you have quoted a number of instances where the amounts according to D.-3, 1910, or according to some document, arc different from those stated here in the column showing the salaries to which the present positions have been reduced to. Could the compiler of this Schedule A have got that information from the D.-3 list?—He could have got some of that information from the notices issued monthly, and no doubt he did so. 87. The suggestion is that this Schedule A is put before the Committee in such a way as to mislead the Committee? —I am not making any suggestion of that kind. 88. You are not making a suggestion of that kind, but questions have been asked by the Minister, and it is my inference, at any rate, that this Schedule A is likely to mislead the Committee. Well, what i" want to get at is this: has the person who compiled this Schedule A access to the documents that would give him the information that 3'ou have placed before the Committee to-day regarding those particular positions?—l have no doubt in my own mind, althougn I have no proof, that the person who compiled that schedule would have access to the documents, because the changes in those positions were notified. They have not been notified by D.-3, but some of them have been notified in what we call "Notices of Promotions, Fines, and Dismissals," which are distributed for information of the staff, and the various dates of each promotion and changes involving same are shown thereon. Yet, as this Schedule A shows a number of positions to be different to what they were on the D.-3, I should say that the person who compiled Schedule A must have had access to the notices, or otherwise he got official information, and if he got official information 89. Mr. Arnold.] Those members are all members of the institute, and they had a meeting. Could they not get the information from the members who compiled the list? —Yes. but they could get the promotions from the notices.