A.-4.

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10th Day.] All-Red Route. [16 June, 1911. Sir JOSEPH WARD— cont. loss as against sending the mails across the American Continent would, even under the proposals we are submitting, ensue as against the American overland route ; so that, as a corollary to what is being done across the Atlantic and Pacific, there appears to be some necessity for a reduction of the time which I apprehend is possible on the overland Canadian route. I do not propose to repeat any of the arguments I brought forward on the last occasion on the matter of what is required to carry out a service of this kind excepting to say that those arguments, with the advantage of oil as against coal, still hold good. The PRESIDENT : I do not know whether it would be convenient to you, Sir Joseph, but it occurred to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself when you were mentioning some of the points in which the situation had changed, whether you would deal with the question of the approaching completion of the Panama Canal. Sir JOSEPH WARD : I intend to allude to it. I want just to direct the attention of the Conference to the particular point of the Canadian rail service, because I know it is important in connection with the hastening of the service across the Atlantic, connecting as it does with the existing service we have across the Pacific. I want to impress upon the British Government particularly, that New Zealand is, I think, the only one of the self-governing Dominions that is not in the fortunate position of having a subsidised mail service outward from Great Britain in connection with any line of steamers trading between the Mother Country and New Zealand. Australia has a subsidised service, India has it, South Afiica has it, and the United States of America has it. lam not talking of the subsidies given at the other end, of course, but of the British subventions to steamers carrying mails and passengers outwards from the United Kingdom. I want to impress upon Mr. Asquith and his colleagues here that we in that distant country do not want to be excluded from participating in what, from the practical point of view of bringing us closer to the Old Country, is so essential to us. It does seem to me that the time has arrived when perhaps that aspect of the matter might be favourably considered. We are paying for mail services to the Old Land, but the Old Country is not doing so to us, and they are doing so to other countries. I realise that the prospects in a few years from now of the opening of the Panama Canal may materially affect the whole system of connecting certainly New Zealand—it does not apply to Canada—with the Mother Country. Upon the opening of that canal it will bring us a few days at all events nearer to the Old Country than the existing route does. But I have got a very strong desire to see the All-Red route linking up Great Britain, Canada, and New Zealand independently of any prospect of the Panama Canal, because in New Zealand we look upon Canada as a half-way house, as a great and growing British Dominion that, in co-operation with England and with us, would obtain material benefits in many ways ; and I should not be disposed myself to relinquish any effort to link up Canada with the Old Country, and with New Zealand, of course, on the other side, on account of any prospective developments that may take place after the opening of the Panama Canal. When the Panama Canal is opened The PRESIDENT : When is it expected to be opened ? Sir JOSEPH WARD : In about three years from now. That is what I was told a short time ago in response to inquiries I made. In the ordinary course of things, the opening of the Panama Canal, as far as New Zealand is concerned, will raise a question beyond all doubt as to what we are going to do in the matter of some of our steam services with England, and, if the rates upon the Panama Canal are not prohibitive, I have no doubt whatever that a large portion of our trade with this country will be carried through the Panama Canal. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Certainly the postal service will go through the Panama Canal.