R. \V. MCVILLY.

107

L—6a

in connection with that, as an illustration, 1 want to point out that since the Department began to pay members of the First Division specially for Sunday duty it is surprising the number of applications it has had in which Sunday work is stated to be essential. Ido not think there is a week goes by but one or two, and sometimes more, applications for payment for Sunday duty are approved. To a large extent the Department has to be guided by the recommendations of the District Officers as to the necessity for that work, but it involves considerable expense. So far as the accounting is concerned, the Department, after taking the matter fully into consideration in all its aspects and going into it with a view of seeing what could be done, has come to the conclusion that, provided the men keep the work up as they should do, there is no necessity for Sunday duty in the preparation of accounts, with the exception of one or two main stations, which are specially dealt with. 4. Mr. Emus.] You have not dealt with the question of payment for Sunday duty xvhere trains start on Saturday and run into Sunday?—l will deal with the contention in that case. It is, I understand, that where a train leaves a station on Saturday and finishes its run on Sunday morning—that is, any time after 12 o'clock at night on Saturday —that the staff at that particular station should be paid for Sunday duty. That is the contention, 1 take it. Now, where you have suburban trains the staff are brought on in shifts, and are dealt with accordingly. You bring them on on Saturday afternoon to work through all the trains on Saturday night, and they finish at the station at 12.5 a.m. or 1 o'clock on the Sunday morning, as the case may be. The contention of the institute has been that that should constitute Sunday work and should be paid for as such. The Department takes the other viexv, and says that it is not Sunday duty. If a special train is sent out on Sunday, then men are paid; but they are not paid if the train is finishing its Saturday night's run in the ordinary course. If a train is due at a station at 12 o'clock on Saturday night and does not arrive till 12.30 or 1 o'clock, we do not pay for that. We say, " No, that is finishing its running. If a train finished at 12 o'clock and a special train started at 1 o'clock, the men xvould get paid for that, because xve should say that was starting a nexv week's work. Up to four hours is paid half a day, and over that a lull day. Another contention is that xvhere a man, as 1 take it, attends a train on Sunday morning and there is another service out on Sunday night, the man who attends the Sunday morning train should not come out again, but another man should be brought out on the Sunday night and be paid also. In other words, two men should be paid for one Sunday's work. The Department does not take that view. If A goes out on Sunday morning and we pay him he is required to take the Sunday night's train, as he is paid lor the Sunday. That is the practice" of the Department now. From the Department's point of view, there are no grounds on which the contention of the institute, that a man should be paid for Sunday duty in a case where a train is only finishing the Saturday night's run, can be sustained at all. A man goes on at a certain time in the afternoon; he works his shift, which takes him perhaps one or two hours into the Sunday—it is part of his xveek's work. The Department does not pay him for that. The Department takes the viexv that the man has no ground at all for complaint, and that that claim is unreasonable. When you come to narrow it down the position you get into is this : that if you admit that when a train runs late on Saturday night or extends over into the Sunday—a train which ought to arrive at its destination on Saturday night is late—that if you are going to pay double rate or single-and-a-quarter rate, then it seems to me you are offering a premium for the late trains to run late. It is an inducement to run late because increased earnings may accrue. I do not say such a thing would occur, but still there is the inducement. However, the Department cannot see any reason or any grounds on xvhich the institute can support what they have claimed —that payment should be made for Saturday trains which arrive at their destination on Sunday. 5. With regard to those men running trains on Saturday nights that you referred to, are not the running staff on the trains paid overtime when a bit late? —I am not sure about that. 6. Therefore the fact of paying the First Division men would not increase the late running? —It might. 7. Will you explain to the Committee how? —The driver, xvho would be paid 8. The drivers, guards, and firemen? —Supposing you had an accident, for instance, it would not be a fair thing to expect the Department to pay the station staff. 9. The Chairman.] Since it does not offer a greater inducement to the Second Division men, how can it be said to cause late train-running?— Supposing the First Division men make up their minds to keep the train at their respective stations. 10. Mr. Ennis.] But any time they kept it xx-ould be shown on the guard's sheet, would it Ilo t I —Well, I am afraid that does not always folloxv. 11. Then, at tablet stations the books are kept and signals. There could be no suspicion of collusion betxveen the First and Second Divisions? —I am afraid the tablet books would not always show that. 12. I suppose a system could be evolved xvhich xvould show it? —I spoke the other day about system. You come down to the human equation again. 13. I understood those trains you referred to as Saturday night trains were ordinary trains; but there are many cases of special trains which start on Saturday night and run on Sundays? —I do not know of many. 14. At holiday times, and specials? —Yes, there are some then. 15. And they considerably increase the work of the First Division? —The First Division expect 16. Would it not be reasonable to give them something for it? —I do not know that it would. What about your privileges? 17. The few privileges we have have been set against so many things that you cannot set them against everything? —The few privileges which you talk so lightly about and seem to think so little of run into a very considerable sum annually.