I.—6a.

154

[b. w. movillt.

Department has declined to let an appeal go on where circumstances of that kind existed and warranted it. 98. Is there not frequently delay in giving effect to the decisions of the Board?— Well, when the decisions of the Board come along they have to go to the Minister, and the Minister cannot always deal with them straight away, and neither can the Department deal with them straight away. The Minister and the Department have got certain other public matters to attend to, but there is no avoidable delay, and effect is given to the decision as soon as it can be. If a man is suspended and it is recommended that he should be reinstated, that is generally telegraphed, and then he gets his pay from the time it was withheld. 99. There is no unavoidable delay in giving effect to the recommendations?— No. 100. Mr. Ross.] As the question of drunkenness has entered into this subject so largely this morning, Mr. McVilly, might I ask you xvhat is the recognized departmental definition of drunkenness? —Now you are asking me to explain something xvhich the Chief Justice has admitted he cannot define. I am not prepared to say xvhen I should consider a man drunk, but if a man came along and I thought lie had had liquor and xvas not able to do his xvork I know xvhat would happen then; but I am not not going to define xvhen a man is drunk. 101. So that a man might have one drink and be considered drunk? —If you had got a fanatic on temperance to deal xvith I think he xx-ould say that a man with one liquor is under the influence of liquor, while another man will say that a man with a gallon is not. You have to leave that to the person xvho sees the man at the time. 102. What I was going to suggest is this : That as this consumption of drink on duty is evidently fatal to quite a number of good officers, would it not be a good thing to insist on all employees in the service being absolute abstainers? —They do so in America in regard to trainrunning, but I am afraid if we tried to do so in this democratic country a lot of us xvould have to get out. 103. Why I am putting the question is because I am afraid that any outsider reading this evidence xvould come to the conclusion that drunkenness was pretty prevalent in the Railway Department among officers? —No, I do not think that could be sustained, because, taking the service as a whole, there is only a small number of cases, and you xvill have that in every xvalk of life xx'herever a number of men are employed. The probabilities are that greater prominence is given to the matter in the Railways by reason of the fact that the public safety has to be considered, and therefore a sharper look-out is kept; but I do not think you xvould get the same amount of intemperance in the Railway Department as among a similar number of men employed outside. 104. You xvould probably get less? —Yes, very likely so, but I cannot say. Mr. Ramsay: I should be glad, Mr. Chairman, if you xvould ask Mr. McVilly to produce the files in connection xvith Harrington's and McKenzie's cases. The Chairman: Yes, they will be put in for the information of the Committee. Institute's Statement of Estimated Cost op Proposed Increases. The Chairman: Regarding the statements asked for from time to time, I think the first one was mentioned in Mr. Dennehy's evidence. Mr. McVilly promised to look into the matter of the cost based on the institute's request, and supply the Committee xvith his estimate of the cost. Mr. Dennehy: It xvas the estimated cost of granting to the Railxvay officers a similar scale to that given to the Post and Telegraph Department. I quoted certain figures, and at a later date the institute handed to Mr. McVilly a statement xvhich he agreed to look into and give the Committee his opinion of at a later stage. Mr. Ramsay: With regard to the statement put in shoxving xx'hat the institute estimated would be the cost of adopting the Postal scale in the Railway service, perhaps Mr. McVilly admits that those figures are correct. Mr. McVilly: Oh, no, I do not. Mr. Ramsay: Ihen, if tljey are not correct, xvhat is the position to be? I suppose Mr. McVilly xvill point out xvhere they are incorrect, and alloxv one of the members of the institute who understands the figures to cross-examine him. Mr. McVilly: If I might be allowed to state, sir, the position xvas this: When Mr. Ramsaywas giving evidence he put in a statement of the estimated cost, and xxTien examining me on a point of evidence I had given he asked me ii I xvould admit their statement as to the cost was correct. I said I would not, but xvould be glad to look into the statement if it xvas handed to me. I xvould like to say that this statement was put in as a result of my having read out certain estimates prepared by the Department to show that the cost of xx'hat xvas proposed xx-ould be about £816,000 in fifteen years. Mr. Ramsay then put in the institute's statement showing " the total estimated cost for four years xvas £30,260," and he asked me to admit the correctness of it, but I have not admitted the correctness of it. So far as the Department is concerned, I am quite prepared to stand by the original figures I quoted. The Chairman : Mr. McVilly should deal with this statement as his side of that particular point. The institute has placed on record its side. Mr. McVilly would then be putting on record his side of the case, and the institute could question him as before. Mr. McVilly: I understand that xvhen asked to look into this matter lam asked to admit the accuracy of the statement submitted bx' the institute, that the total cost in four years in bringing into effect what they are asking xvould be £30,260. Well, T said at the time I did not admit the accuracy of the statement, and, obviously, to deal with it I must place some figures before the Committee to show wherein it is inaccurate; and in dealing xvith that I propose also to hand in some other statements shoxving the cost of various proposals that have been made. The Chairman: Statements you want to put in which have reference to any matter that has not been postponed you can put in without comment, but any other matter you xvill have an opportunity of explaining.