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17. His share in the product? —It is a comparative answer, of course. If you ask me whether the workers' share of the total product is in comparison with the capitalists' share of the total product, I could not give a definite answer; but my opinion is that the workers' share is not as great to-day as it was, say, twenty years ago. 18. Though what he gets is more than before?— Yes, but his share of the total product, I think, is not as much as before. 19. Mr. Macdonald.] His proportionate share?— Yes. 20. Have you studied the question of the effect of tariff reduction? —The organizations I am connected with are in favour of a protective tariff. They are in favour of some arrangement like they have in the Commonwealth, whereby the worker, the consumer, and the employer will get any advantage arising from an increased tariff. Instances have been given before the Commission where a reduction has taken place in the tariff for the purpose of helping the consumer, but the reduction has not been a benefit to the consumer : some one else collared it. 21. Can you supply us with reliable information on it? —No, I cannot. 22. The You remember the Sweating Commission in 1889. You remember that the conditions in Dunedin were very deplorable at that time? —That is so. 1 have had occasion to write on the subject, contrasting the conditions in the clothing trade between then and later. 23. Do you say that the conditions have improved very much? —In the clothing trade, certainly. 24. That must necessarily induce an increase in the cost of living. They must pay more for their clothes?— Yes. Reasonably increased wages do not, in my opinion, make a great difference in the cost of a product. The position is that in many manufacturing concerns machinery has been introduced and new methods have been introduced which go towards greater efficiency and cheaper cost of manufacture. 25. So that the larger wages that are given to workers are counter-balanced by the cheaper methods of production?— That is so. 26. It does not necessarily follow that an article costs much more because wages have been increased? —No; but, of course, the capitalist will argue that you must allow a greater amount for interest and sinking fund, and even for the, fact that he owns the machine. My idea, of course, is that inventions ought to belong to the State, rather than be made the medium of profit and of squeezing the community. 27. Mr. Robertson.] Can you give any specific instance where an increase in the cost of production by wages has been counteracted by improved machinery or improved methods ?—The usual course in almost every case when an increase has been brought into force is for the employer to adopt new methods to try to override the effect of the award. That is why I believe the workers should strive for a continuous betterment in their position. Whether they do that or not, we know that improved methods are coming into vogue. 28. Mr. Fairbairn.] To what extent have machines displaced skilled labour in the industries you have special knowledge of? —Take the one I have most knowledge of—that is the printing trade. I was a compositor. The linotype came in and easily does four men's work. If you take the boot-factories, machinery has been improved tremendously. There are factories here which are capable of a much greater output than they are doing at present, and that is again increasing the price of boots to the public. 29. There is an important principle behind this. Your association believes in protection, but is it always in the interests of the workers that this protection should go along, bearing in mind that machinery is gradually replacing skilled and trained labour t You are protecting the machines —is that not so?—We believe in protection if the consumer, the producer, the manufacturer gets the benefit, but we do not believe in the protection which gives all the benefit to the manufacturer. 30. Mr. Robertson.] You said that increased wages was generally followed by improved methods. If a higher tariff allows them to pay this increased wage, it obviates the necessity for improved methods, and allows them to go on on the old methods with increased cost of production? —If that followed, of course, it would not be in the interest of the community. Take the boot trade, which got an increase at the last revision of the tariff. lam not claiming that boots are cheaper, but I am going to claim that men work a great deal harder, and that the product from the labour side is a great deal cheaper than it was before the increased tariff. 31. The Chairman.] In regard to the introduction of machinery : it is within your knowledge that a great many years ago —as far as the scope of our Commission extends —the toilers were at the beginning of that period very badly paid. They have had their wages considerably increased by awards of the Court. Has not the result been that improved machinery and improved methods, such as applying steam-driving power to the machines, has very largely balanced the increase in wages as far as the cost of the industry is concerned ?—The tendency of those in regard to tailoresses as well as others is to drive the operatives towards a higher and higher output. Instead of the output being reduced in these specific cases, the bootmakers aifd the tailoresses —instead of the operative not working as hard as he did before, I believe he is putting out a great deal more articles than he did before. I am prepared to say that absolutely in the case of the tailoresses. The increase in wages paid in factories or industrial work has been shown to be 35 per cent., whilst the increase in output has been 31 per cent., so that the increase in wages can hardly be said to have added very much to the cost of production. The increase in wages has been a very small item in the increase in the cost of production. Alexander Balfour Mercer, Secretary of the Master Grocers' Union, examined on oath. (No. 24.) 1. The Chairman.] What is your occupation, Mr. Mercer?— Salesman and traveller for C. H. Tucker and Co., Dunedin. lam also secretary of the Master Grocers, Dunedin.