L—7.

4

COLONEL HEAKD.

alternative service. We must give credit for there being a large number of decent young men. Those before the Committee came from a certain particular section. 6. Your suggestions seem to me to be worthy of consideration, but when one thinks about it one is driven back to what is to be done with the young men who absolutely refused to do any work of any character at all: what is to be done with them?— They lose all their civil rights so long as they refuse, and they cannot be employed in any Government employment: those are two penalties under the Act. If they do not do their work they get no vote. 7. Mr, Isitt.] I do not think the question of remuneration matters very much. We are up against this difficulty : we have got in some way or other to solve this problem, and my opinion is that as soon as we take it in hand it will disappear to a large extent? —I think so. 8. It is proposed to pay the same remuneration to these men? —Only for the days they would be in camp —that is, nine days at 4s. a day—because for the rest of the training the Territorials do they get no pay : they are only paid for nine days. 9. Still, those drills do not interrupt the ordinary work? —The farmers find it very inconvenient. I have heard a great deal from the farmers' point of view, and it is a very large section indeed. 10. You are counting in the time attending the drill? —But there is the going to and coming back from the drill, and the farmers' boys sometimes waste half a day each time. If you take the whole-day parade—that is six hours —and take into consideration, in addition, the time it takes going to and coming back from parade. 11. What wo want is a sufficient penalty to prevent any lad assuming a conscientious objection who is not really a conscientious objector. Could it not be worked in this way : that if a lad does his eighteen or twenty-one days' drill cheerfully and well he would receive remuneration? —A bonus. T2. You say he received nine day's drill? —Yes. 13. If he sulks and will not do any work, you lengthen his work to four weeks? —Yes. 14. And pay him no remuneration? —Yes; that is a matter entirely for the House to determine in an amending Act. 15. He then practically receives four week's confinement for i efusing the alternative service? —Yes. 16. That seems to be a way out of the difficulty? —It is a question whether that is sufficient punishment —whether lie buys immunity from rendering any personal service simply by sulking and then having a sort of rest cure. If he goes into camp and does nothing, he is having a rest cure at the Government expense—he is fed and housed, and so on. You want to prevent that and put on a little more than an extension of time. 17. I fancy you would find that most boys would not care about four weeks in camp even if they did not do any work? —At the same time I think you want to be prepared for an eventuality though you might not enforce it. Y r ou ought to have an extra deterrent up your sleeve, because you might go on like this year after year. 18. Hon. Mr. Itigg.\ Can you suggest any other means of enforcing the law except by alternative service? —For the conscientious objector? 19. For anybody who refuses to serve?— The law as it stands says thai every young man between certain ages has to render personal service to the State in the form of military training. Well, the defence of the State is a personal service, and a very right and proper one. If a young man says that his religion forbids his taking part in any military work, or if he says that his conscience prevents him from doing so, unless you make him render some equivalent service he is evading his responsibility not only according to law, but according to his honourable obligation, and the question is, what are you going to do? How is he to fulfil his obligation to the State of which he is a member and in which he lives? He has all the advantages and protection of the State without taking any responsibility in the matter. In those circumstances hi' is better off than the lad who shoulders his responsibility and does his duty to the State. Is it right, therefore, that the man who has religious and conscientious objections should evade all his responsibility? l£ would mean that if you did not make him render some equivalent service you would have a considerably larger number of conscientious objectors, and the danger would be that we would not be able to keep up our full establishment of Territorials, and so the democratic principle of every one being treated the same way falls to the ground. 20. It would lie easy enough for the Magistrate to decide, would it not, as to the religious objector? —Yes. Take the Society of Friends: there is a very definite principle there that they are not to take part in any military work. I think that is the only Church in existence that really does have that principle. I know of no other; but it is quite possible that a man may make out that he is a religious objector. That is for the Magistrate to decide —we have nothing to do with that; and the same with the conscientious objection. 21. The difficulty is to decide whether the conscientious objector is sincere or only using it as a cloak? —Y r es; but, as Mr. Isitt suggested, if we make this alternative service sufficiently burdensome he may find his conscience will allow him to undertake military work afterwards which he will find more pleasant and less burdensome. 22. Are there any objectors who refuse to drill who object on any other grounds than those you mentioned —conscientious objectors and religious objectors?—l do not think so. I do not know what grounds those young men like Worrall and Williams have. I do not know whether it is conscientious objections or cussedness. I rather think it is the latter. 23. Hon. Mr. Callan.] Williams's objection was that this country would never be attacked? —That is a futile objection. You might have no army anywhere under those conditions. 24. Hon. Mr. Bigg.] You are aware that General Godley has suggested that in the case of those who refuse to register and refuse service that an attachment of wages should be extended? —Yes.