23

L—7a.

B. H. COLLINS.]

105. Have you power, when they are committed to Ripa Island, to compel them to do military work?—We wish we had. If they will not work we can only bring them before the Magistrate, where our power ends. 106. But these men complain that they are violating their conscientious opinions by performing military duties, and then when they are confined to Ripa Island you have no alterative but to make them violate their consciences: is not that so?—I do not think we take any official notice of their conscience. 107. None whatever?—No, not yet. 108. If a man really has a conscientious objection, and you have no other punishment than to give him work to which he has a conscientious objection, the punishment must be everlasting — there can be no end to it if that is the case? —I suppose that would follow. 109. You have had experience of this military detention at Ripa Island : do you think now, with your experience of it, that you are likely to accomplish the objects of the Act by getting these men sent their under military detention? —It does not look very promising so far; I do not think so. 110. Does it interfere in any way with the ordinary work of the military detachments at Lyttelton—l understand that you have the Royal Artillery there?— Yes. 111. And I presume they have their ordinary military duties to attend to?— Yes. 112. Does this materially interfere with their ordinary work? —Yes, it does, because we have had to send down extra personnel from Wellington to look after these men in detention. 113. Does it amount to very much —is it expensive? —Yes, it is an extra expense. 114. It is conceded, I understand, that the offence is a civil one. Would it not be better to let the civil authorities carry out their own punishments?— That is what we should prefer. 115. Do you think that the civil authorities would be more likely to achieve the end in view than the military authorities can, in regard to this punishment?— With equal powers I do not think they could achieve more than we are doing. I think some special power is necessary. 116. If you concede that it is a civil offence, generally speaking, would it not be better for the civil authorities to carry out their own punishment?— Yes, in my opinion it would. I do not know that everybody would agree with me, though. 117. At all events, you admit that the military authorities, so far, are not very hopeful of doing much good the way it is now? —No, they are not. 118. Hon. Mr. Smith.] Was not the power of dealing with these offences taken out of the hands of the civil people and detention in barracks introduced so as to avoid the stigma of the gaol? It was really a concession to these anti-militarists : was not that the principle that underlay it?— Yes. 119. Hon. Mr. Bigg.] You have read General Godley's report?— Yes. 120. You know what method of punishing offenders he suggests?—l do not recall what he said in his report. 121. He advocates the attachment of wages?— Yes, quite so, in preference to detention. 122. Hon. Mr. Anstey.] At present apparently the civil authorities have full charge of all the work done up to the point when these men are committed to Ripa Island; thereafter the military authorities take charge and carry out the punishment. Do you think it would be wise that the military authorities should assume control at an earlier stage than that? Can you suggest any earlier stage? For instance, you might begin at the start and make the whole thing a military offence? —I think the objection to that is that you then get the military authorities interfering with the civil law, and that sureiy is not a desirable state of affairs. 123. Could you suggest that it could come in at any earlier stage?— No. 124. Mr. Coales.] What are the ages of these men, approximately? —With four or five exceptions, I believe they are over eighteen—that is, of Territorial age. I think there were four or five of them who were Senior Cadets —that is to say, under eighteen. 125. The Chairman.] What was the length of your visit to the island when you went down? You went down specially to inquire into this trouble? —Yes. I might have been, I think, an hour and a half on the island —somewhere thereabouts. 126. Did you inspect the rooms they were living in?— Yes. 127. Were they, in your opinion, rooms that were fit for them to occupy? Was there any objection to the rooms? —No. They were just barrack-rooms, the same as the Royal New Zealand Artillery would occupy. 128. Were you there while they had a meal? —No. 129. Were you able to inspect the food in any way?— No. I took what evidence I could about it from Lieutenant Mac Donald, the sergeant-major, and Bombadier Moir. 130. You are satisfied that the food that was supplied to the men was exactly the same in quality as that supplied to those undergoing military detention? —Yes. I had no reason to disbelieve any of those people I have mentioned, who told me it was so. The Chairman: I have just received this telegram from Mr. Bailey, the Magistrate: "Letter only just received. Defendants were in custody: there was no need for summons. No application for adjournment was made until after case closed. Evidence of refusal to obey orders was clear, and there was no defence on merits. There was no evidence of punishment for offence by officer commanding.—Bailey, Magistrate."