I.—B.

13

J. KERSHAW.

to follow them. Wliai Ido wish to emphasize is this: that in order to arrive ai anything Like a conclusion which is likely to be for the benefil i>l the country or for the members of friendly societies the members of friendly societies should bave an opportunity of considering any scheme which is tii Ik: brought down. In addition, the Government ought to assist, as they did on the last ocoaeion, in defraying the expenses of members attending a conference. Of course, such n conference would be restricted to representatives, and not too many, from the respective friendly societies. They would deliberate and come to a conclusion, and whichever way the majority i>l , that conference decided, let that be the view of the friendly societies as a whole; but as it is at present, members of the Ministry go to one part of the Dominion, where one party interviews them in regard ti> subvention and urging it upon them, while another party is opposed to it. The result is that there is c division of opinion, and I maintain that in this as in all matters the friendly societies can materially help the Government in coming to a conclusion on this very important question. If there is a desire on the part of the Government or some other organization d> enter upon a scheme of social insurance, ami the friendly societies are not sympathetic with it—well, if they pronounce against it in the manner 1 have suggested, then the Government will he Ui-<- to take its own course. It has been said thai the friendly societies opposed the matter at the last Conference. I have thought the matter out sinci the last meeting of this Committee, and 1 am not convinced that that was bo, ami I think the right ami proper course to ileal with it is a< I have suggested. The lion. Mr. Fisher has said that a scheme will be issueil with the report of this Committee. If that is so, we will know what we have to consider and we can pronounce upon it. Hon. Mr. Beehan: That scheme is too costly. Witness: I 'I" not know whether that will come forward, but I am speaking in a general sense. Whatever suggestions the Government may expect the friendly societies to consider, let them have the full information before them SO thai the\ consider ii and come to a conclusion. Do not take the views of a representative in Dunedin or Auckland, as the case may be. but take the views of the friendly societies as a whole, and let th.it be the determining factor whether the friendly societies are in favour of a subvention scheme or any other matter. I do not know that I can say any more. I understood ihe first order of reference was to the report of the Registrar of Friendly Societies for 1913, and I have endeavoured .to confine my remarks to matters as set out there. The question of subvention as it is in operation in New South Wales has been already referred to. so tha! I do not need to traverse that. I Only wish to say this: that in regard to New South Wales, I have had a report of their last annual meeting as far as our society is concerned, and they have made more members than Ihe'y have ever made at any previous time. In fact, the society is going ahead by leaps and bounds. Whether thai is due altogether to subvention or the consolidation of funds which has taken place there T do not know; but they have made wonderful progress. Of course, lam referring to the Manchester Unity alone. It is the only society 1 have any information about at present. I cannot close my remarks without again making a reference to the work which is being done in the office of the Registrar of Friendly Societies and the assistance which the societies are getting. We have no fault to find in that direction; but we do think and lam expressing, I believe, the opinion of a large number of the leaders of friendly societies — we do think, .-.nd think very sincerely, that the Government should take the societies more into their confidence, and that thej should give them an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon these most important matters. By this means they can have a voice in determining what should be done, and they believe that l>\ so doing they will be saving the country expense, and will l)i- helping members of the House to come I" a '(inclusion which will be for the best inteiests of friendly societies. 2. II mi. Mr. Fisher.] Would you prefer to have subvention and see the Government continue the National Provident Fund, or would you prefer to have no subvention and no National Provident Fundi— As I told you at the commencement, I must express only my own opinion in regard to it. As to the question of the continuance of the National Provident Fund Act as against subvention. ! think on first conviction that I should not be prepared to saw "Abolish the National Provident Fund." I must qualify th.at because it-is a matter which I have not given any great thought to; but this thought Hashed through m> mind at the outset: that if it is striking at the root of our membership mi thai consideration I should prefer 'hat the National Provident Fund scheme should be restricted in that respect. It appeared to me that it was providing for an annuity. Well, that affects part ieiibirl\ the older members rather than those who are so very young so far as the\ would be able to come in at a lower rate of contribution while they are young. 3. Then, I take it your answer is that you would like to see the National Provident Fund scheme restricted? That is my opinion. 4. In what way?—We would not ask that it should be abolished, hut that the provision for canvassers. Lecturers, and SO in should be abolished. My view is that no exception should he taken to the Government establishing the National Provident Fund so as to allow any one who wishes to take advantage of the provisions of that fund being able to do so, but let it stop at that. The Registrar told us the other day that it would have practically died a natural death if they had not helped the thing on. but it should stand just as our societies are doing and take its chance with the general work of the friendly societies. 5. You said you hoped thai a scheme like this would not be forced upon the friendly societies without their being properly consulted in the matter? —Yes. 6. There has never been any attempt to do that, has there? —Yes. 7. I think you have been met with every consideration in regard to the Hill all the way through?—l am mil sure of that. I am not prepared to say v<|< to (hat—not in view of the answers we have received and the comunications which have oome forward. Ft has been promised again and again that the schemes would be considered, but they have never yet reached t lie friendly societies.