[PROFESSOR YON ZEDtITZ.

J— l3a.

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which "ill go into the colleges and take each subject and see how the teaching is being carried on. and how it compares with the recognizer! standard; also to look into the standard obtained by the students and Bee whether the work dour is reasonably good; also to see what the work indicates and the degree indicates, and tee whether the work done in the individual cases justifies the expenditure of the public money. I have nol the slightest doubt that this Committee would judge as sensibly as any other, and'all the time what we have been thinking of is an appeal to the simple practical man who had no educational fads. We want him to compare the sort of evidence we can give and the sort of evidence Sir Robert Stout can give, and judge between the two; but when it cimies to the question of the reorganization of the University the difficulties are great. I am talking after having thought out the details of it for years. <). Yon spoke of the standing of Lord Milner and Lord Haldane. Would you tell us what their standing is in university matters, especially Lord Milner , si —He lias been a member of the London University Commission, and he is a man whose name is big before the public. 10. As an educationist? —No, as a statesman. 11. Then why suggest him as a big man on this question whose opinion is worth getting?— Well. 1 think that if you took any leading statesman in England you would get much the same sort of opinion. It is simply because lie happens to be such a man as gives weight before the general unthinking public, and before thinking people for that matter. 12. And possibly without having any sufficiently good reason for that opinion ?—Quitr possibly. 13. Lloyd George is also a man who stands prominently before the public? —Yes. 14. Would h< , be a man whom you would suggest ,' As far as 1 am concerned I would just a> willingly take him. only the unfortunate thing is that Lloyd George would not be so acceptable to the whole of the public because he is Lloyd George. 15. Do you think Lord Milner would carry more weight because he is pertona grata with the people? Well, not on university matters. 16. As far as your knowledge goes is any university well governed in any part of the Empire! Comparatively, Yes; absolutely. No. 17. Where.' —I should say that the constitution and methods of the newer English universities have been very much more successful than was anticipated. 18. Such as Manchester?— Yes. Manchester, Birmingham, ami Leeds—that is to say, they have done what we, unfortunately, with our hands tied lik<' this, have not a chance of trying to do : they have attracted large donations and subscriptions. IK. Do you consider the conduct of those universities has been very satisfactory I—Well,1 —Well, of course, there are exceptions, ami things have gone very wrong with the University of Bristol recently. Yon cannot speak absolutely about that, but relatively the British people have every right to be proud of the university development in the last generation. 20. They have a short history to draw on? —Yes. 21. You would not refer us to any older universities? —I am Oxford myself, and I try to get rid of the Oxford predisposition when dealing with a New Zealand question. I think the fact that there is such a thing as a predisposition in favour of a residential university, and the opinion that a university can do no good unless it is residential, can do us a lot of harm. 1 have no Ruch prejudices myself. 22. When referring to our own University work 1 think you used the phrase " might be better." Can you tell us how you think it might lie better?—! did say that with the same money they might be doing more useful work. 23. In what way?—Do you mean me personally? 24. No, the University?—lt simply amounts to this : if each professor in the different subjects was free to teach in the manner that he considered most desirable, and. in the second place, if we restricted ourselves somewhat—l will try and give you a practical illustration of the sort of thing T mean. In the present system there are a large number of subjects which thp student can choose absolutely at his own discretion as to which he will take. Six of them taken together makes up a degree. Wejl, a small and poor, institution cannot possibly run a degree on those lines; they must limit themselves to teaching a certain number of combinations or else the teachers cannot work together. The different teachers have different interests, and instead of Supporting each other and playing into each other's hands, as if the students were limited in the arts course to certain sets of combinations—instead of being able, as at present, to take any combination they please, now each professor is alone and there is no co-operation possible, and it is a waste of the efforts of the teachers and of the resources of the institution. That is a practical instance. 2."). I may say that I am with you in desiring greater independence of the professors in examination, but you speak of safeguards against slackness. What do you suggest in that direction? —Well, the most important safeguards—in fact, the only ones—arc the pressure and opinion of colleagues, and. for that matter, of students; but in the oase of Bfteen or twenty university men all being together in the same place the most important safeguard with regard to each individual is the criticism of his fellows. If. as in New Zealand, there is no combination of the teachers in a consulting and examining professorial body, but each one is independent, then that safeguard is gone. 26. I understand in this Examination Board, of which you suggest the professor of the class is a member, he would feel much ashamed if his students as a body exhibited gross ignorance of the subject [—Yes, and not only that. Wherever you find three or four men together, and where one understands his job and the others do not and there are weaknesses in their ability, the weak ones are not prepared to make a fuss and appeal to another authority, but will give in and submit. 27. What are the terms of appointment ii. Victoria College?— They are limited to five years, but I think the majority of the professors are holding without any reappointment—just sitting