1.—13 a.

48

LAKY.

meiit a reply to these applications, and, if a refusal, the grounds for the refusal. In May, 1911, I offered, and have subsequently given, Victoria College £50 for a research scholarship on the condition that the Government gave a £5(1 subsidy. The College Registrar, Treasurer, and 1 have applied at intervals since then for the subsidy, but without avail. In not subsidizing this donation the Education Department are departing from Mr. Fowlds's promise that donations to the College would be subsidized. It is, further, the first time during the last three years that a subsidy has not been paid to Victoria College. Since the subsidy to Victoria College was applied for one of £1,000 or more has been paid to Otago University." Mr. Berdnian wrote back to say, " I am in receipt of your letter of yesterday's date, and have seen the Minister of Education in reference to its contents. Mr. Allen knew nothing about the gift to the College of £50, and also knew nothing about the subsidy that was promised to be made by the Hon. Mr. Fowlds, but he has undertaken to have the matter looked into at once. 1 am communicating with him officially in the matter to-day, and as soon as 1 receive a reply 1 will write you again." 13. Mr. Sidey.] What is the date of that letter.' —The -'51st October, 1012 —about ten months ago. It is about two or three years since I made the offer. I may state that subsidies usually are given. Mr. Turnbull gave £100 to Victoria College for the Laboratory, and Sir Joseph Ward paid a subsidy on that. I myself gave £60 worth of apparatus to the College, and a subsidy was paid on that. But I paid over this £50 and no subsidy was given on that. Then, again. Mr. McCallum refunded the expenses he received as a member of the College Council, and no subsidy has been paid up to the present. In the rase of some donations to Otago University, however, not merely has a pound-for-pound subsidy bees paid, but something over. 14. The Chairman . j Is that not due to some fault on the part of your Registrar) — l do not think there is anything in that. I have here the correspondence relating to the £50 that I gave. I have drawn their attention to it at periods of about three months. 15. Mr. Sidey.] This £50 that you gave was for a scholarship.'—Yes. 16. Do you know of any instance where a similar amount was paid to Otago University for a similar purpose and a subsidy was given? —No. The inference to lie drawn from your question is that it is undesirable to subsidize scholarships Tor research. That is just what I wish to bring before the Committee—that the Education Department is not prepared to subsidize grants when they are given to encourage research; and I would ask that when any one gives a donation to encourage research that this Committee should report in favour of subsidies being paid on that money as well as on money for buildings. I believe that the encouragement of research is more important in New Zealand at present than the erection of buildings. I should just like to summarize the effects of Mr. Hogben's report on Victoria College. The total effect of it, according to our estimate, is that we should be £1,000 to the bad in our finances. \\~v say that that table of proposed staffing, on page 10, has no reality, because it would be impossible for the College to institute such a staff, as the funds would not be available. Secondly, we would be deprived of all specialized teaching. There would be no specialized teaching in law or science at Victoria College after this reporl came into effect. It is not merely the fact of depriving us of that specialization that we complain, because in the case of science the statement that we specialize in it is rather meaningless, but 1 think we have a right to complain of the effect it would have on the whole standard of our work. The fact that we are an evening school has had already the effect of sending junior scholars and other good students—-the best students —elsewhere. When they wish to select a university, if they come from a district such as Taranaki. often they do not come to Victoria College but go to Dunedin. Another effect is that through raising the fees a certain number of good students, who did benefit by the teaching which the College affords to them, arc unable to continue their work. Finally, the report proposes to introduce commerce-teaching in all four centres; and the teaching will not be undei the control of professors, it will be under the control of lecturers, and will be merely of the cramming kind —one or two men will try to cover a whole range of subjects which they will be incapable of treating at a university standard. The effect of the proposal, then, to teach commerce in every centre will be to lower the standard of work in all subjects, because if in a college you have certain- subjects which are taught Wow a university standard the tendency is for that effect to be conveyed to other subjects and for them to fall to a lower standard. I have tested the report in connection with the Victoria College finances. You have seen that while the Inspector-General is directed to increase the provision for libraries he actually proposes a reduction of expenditure on the Victoria College basis, which itself is quite inadequate. He estimates the fees that we should get at Victoria College at £4,455 a year. There is no reason to assume that we can get more than £.S,OOO. On page 12 he states that the amount required for salaries of mechanics, laboratory assistants, and apparatus should be £550, while a a matter of fact there is no reason to suppose that the present work can be tarried on for less than £900 a year. And so on throughout tin- report you will find that it is inaccurate. I have tested it for Victoria College; I have not tested it for the other colleges. I think the duty devolves upon this Committee of having it tested for the other colleges; if they do not and it is put into effect the responsibility for mistakes will fall upon.this Committee. If you test it in the places where I have and it is found so very inaccurate, then I think you will have found that it is a document that will have to be treated with very great oare. You will not be able to assume that because a thing is stated in the report therefore it is a fact. 17. The Chairman.] You say you are coming up again on behalf of the Reform Association? --Yes. 18. What evidence are you going to give then?—On the general question. 19. Mr. Guthr/r.] You say that what Mr. Hogben suggests as sufficient far the four libraries- - £250 a year each —is absolutely insufficient? —Yes.