1.—13 a.

80

[DR. I. HUNTER.

206. You ought to be pleased? —I am. 207. That was a prophecy of Dr. MacGregor's " mischievous sham "1 —Yes. 208. Has the prophecy been borne out, in your opinion) I think so. In 1903-5 T think the condition of affairs down there at the Dunedin Hospital was simply lamentable. 209. Was the Medical School a "mischievous sham" in 1903-5? — Take an instance: You have an ophthalmic school. Here is a man with an eye; at the back of that eye you can see certain things; the student has lectures, but cannot look into the eye to see. That is not knowledge ; it is sham knowledge. 210. Do you know to-day whether the Medical School is a "mischievous sham"? Would you be prepared to say ?—No, I could not speak about it to-day. 211. Then you cannot say whether the prophecy has been fulfilled or not?—lt was fulfilled in 1903-5. 212. I am talking about the school now?—l have had no experience of the school, except hearsay, since I left it in 1905. 213. Do you know that the preliminary medical examination of the University of New Zealand is recognized by the General Medical Council of Great Britain and Ireland? —Yes. 214. Do you think they would be fools enough to recognize us if we were not good enough? —The preliminary medical examination has nothing to do with the clinical training. That has nothing to do with the Bospital at all. lam discussing the Hospital, not the pre-hospital work. 215. Do you know that the University of Cambridge recognizes two years of our medical oourse? —Yes, the pre-hospital part of it. That does not come into the discussion. I have not made any charges against it. 216.' Yes, you did? —Not a word. 217. You said tin , whole thing was a mischievous sham? — Professor MacGregor was in favour of them doing anatomy and physiology. He thought they could do that, Imt he thought that if they attempted to do a full course in medicine it would prove a mischievous sham.

Friday, sth September, 1913. Professor Laby examined. (No. 23.) Witness read the following statement: — Statement by Professor T. H. Laby on behalf of the University Reform Association. The statement I am about to make is based on the assumption that this Education Committee accepts the report of the previous Education Committee, which was adopted by the House of Representatives. That report states— "(1.) That a case has been made out for reform in the constitution of the New Zealand University, more particularly in the direction of the utilization in a larger measure than at present of the professorial staffs of the colleges in the framing of curricula and syllabuses, and in the conduct of examinations. " (2.) That the appointment of a Royal Commission is not necessary at present, as the Committee believes there is evidence that the University is itself moving in a direction which will gradually evolve a scheme of reform on the lines indicated, and this is borne out to some extent by the fact that in November, 1910, in accordance with a resolution of the Senate, a conference of representatives of the Professorial Boards was held in Wellington to consider certain academic questions referred to by the Senate." At the meeting of the Senate (January, 1912) following the publication of the above report, the Senate, thanks largely to the influence of Mr. James Allen, set up an annual, and it was called " permanent," professorial conference. The professorial conference, consisting of thirty repre sentatives of the four Professorial Boards, met for four days in November of 1912. Throughout the preceding year the Professorial Boards had before them the questions which were to come before the conference, and two of the Boards at least devoted a great deal of time to the solution of these questions, and were finally in agreement on all important principles. The report of the professorial conference will be found on page 10 of the Senate's minutes for 1913. It will be seen that the conference arrived at conclusions which could have been put into force at once on the following matters: The B.A. degree; degree examinations; constitution of the conference for 1913; research scholarships; a syllabus in mathematics and in honours chemistry. Recommendations were also made upon—A special degree in science; Government research scholarships; visit of the British Association. I venture to say that a deliberative body of thirty members rarely accomplishes in four days such a volume of work as the professorial conference did, and that the curriculum for a degree (8.A.) in arts and science subjects proposed by the conference was a carefully thought-out and workable solution of a problem difficult both in principle and detail. The report of the conference came before the Senate at its meeting two months later (January, 1913). The recommendations of the conference were dealt with as follows: —■ (1.) That there be one pass degree in arts and science.—Rejected by the Senate by fourteen votes to eight. (2.) That the external system of examination be abolished within five years, and that the examinations in any subject be conducted by a Board of the responsible University teachers of that subject. —Rejected by seventeen to six. (3.) That the course of study of a candidate for the B.A. degree and the B.Sc. degree should be approved by the Professorial Board of his college.—Rejected by the Senate by thirteen votes to nine.