1.—13 a.

82

[PEOFESSOR LABY.

" Mr. Hogben : I think I said ' Parliament.' Ido not mean that the Education Department would come into it, except that it might frame a Bill for the instruction of the House. " Mr. Herdman : 1 say that no satisfactory system of reform can be brought about by any Commission to inquire into the whole system of education. As far as this Committee is concerned, we have no evidence at all about our educational system or that branch of it which deals with primary or secondary schools, and it is not germane to the subject before the Committee. 1 think the subject is so vast that no investigation would be satisfactory which had to investigate the state of our primary and secondary schools. If there is any necessity the subject should be split up, and different Commissions should be appointed to investigate its different parts. The subject is highly technical, and any inquiry to be made should be of a non-political character, and be made by impartial persons who are skilled and deeply interested in university education. I would suggest that members of the Senate should not be put on any such Commission, and, above all, the inquiry should be thorough, and that as the result of the inquiry our University system should be put on a substantial and permanent basis. Now, as to the constitution of the Committee, I beg to submit this proposal: that the Royal Commission should consist of three different individuals, one an expert from outside of New Zealand, and two business men in New Zealand who have interested themselves in education in the past. , ' And further on : "I hope it will be understood what I mean—that there should be one man from outside, one from the North Island and one from the South Island, and that these three men should be appointed to investigate our system of university education, and be allowed to go to Australia to visit the universities there and call evidence if considered desirable; thai every facility should be given to them to take evidence in New Zealand and Australia, and afterwards to make their report. Now, a good deal will depend upon the man you get from outside. I say that if you get a man of the type of Dr. Hill, who has been appointed on several occasions by the British Government to investigate the question of university reform in England —and I elieve there is a possibility of his being able to come out here —and you join with him such men as Mr. Hosking, of Dunedin, Mr. Fowlds, or Mr. McNab, their report would be so authoritative and of such weight and importance to the whole community that their suggestions would be carried into effect without any difficulty at all." And again : " The report of such a Commission would be so worded, so influential, and so valuable that you would be able to erect upon it a system of university life in this country which would have a permanent and enduring effect, and be of infinite service to the community. President Eliot, of the famous Harvard University, declares that ' the kind of man needed in the governing Board of the university is the highly educated public-spirited business or professional man who takes a strong interest in educational and social problems, and believes in higher education as the source of enlightenment and progress. He should also be a man who has been successful in his own calling, and commands the confidence of all who know him. The faculty he will need most is good judgment.' So that in regard to what I might call the lay members of the proposed Commission the gentlemen I have named, I suggest, would conform to the definition that President Eliot lays down as the kind of man needed on the governing bodies of universities." I would like to add that you might notice that the functions of a Royal Commission such as we desire to have set up would be, amongst other things, (1) to reconstitute the University Senate and College Councils, (2) to constitute an academic Professorial Board, and (3) to introduce schemes of specialization for the different colleges. We submit that such work requires on the Commission men who would be judicial-minded, inasmuch as they would have to reconcile conflicting interests. It would require a chairman of proved ability in this work. If a Royal Commission is appointed the authorities responsible for appointing it should apply either to the Imperial Government or to Lord Haldane, who has just completed similar work on a Royal Commission which has taken some years, for a suitable man to be chairman of the Royal Commission. In that way I think a man of proved ability for such work would be guaranteed. I would suggest also that the actual scope and character of the inquiry should be placed before the Imperial Government or Lord Haldane if they are asked to appoint a Commissioner. 1. Mr. Sidey.~\ Your statement to-day is based upon the assumption that this Committee will come to the same conclusion as did the former Committee, from whose report you have read? — We were informed when we started to give evidence that you would accept the conclusions of the last Committee. The Chairman: No; we stated that we would accept the evidence given before the previous Committee. Witness: I understood that this Committee would adopt the report of the last Committee which was made to the House of Representatives. 2. Mr. Sidey.] At any rate, I want to make clear the assumption upon which you make your statement to-day?—l assumed that you would proceed from the point where the previous Committee left off, and accept the findings of that Committee. 3. But then there is another assumption that you also make: that the only reason why the former Committee did not recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission was the one mentioned in their report —" That the appointment of a Royal Commission is not necessary at present, as the Committee believes there is evidence that the University is itself moving in a direction which will gradually evolve a scheme of reform on the lines indicated, and this is borne out to some extent by the fact that in November, 1910, in accordance with a resolution of the Senate, a conference of representatives of the Professorial Boards was held in Wellington to consider certain academic questions referred to it by the Senate "1 —That is so. I take it that that is the only reason assigned by the previous Committee for not recommending a Royal Commission. 4. You will agree that it is quite possible for this Committee to come to the conclusion that reform is necessary without concluding that a Royal Commission should be appointed? No, I