H.—l9b.

128

!'h. a. de lautour.

19. What was the prior regulation? —The same as applied to all members of the Civil Service —sixty-five. 20. The new regulations provide for retirement at fifty-five?— After Colonel Purdy's appointment, yes. 21. And, in fact, you had passed that age?—No, I am only sixty-five now. 22. You have what is commonly callerl a grievance in connection with this matter? —Scarcely a grievance, but you can put it that way. 23. Based, as you put it, on the promotion of a junior officer over your head?— Yes. It was in order to qualify with a view to succeeding to the position that I went to the expense of going Home, at my own expense, and spending twelve months at Home. 24. And you were disappointed at not receiving the appointment? —Yes. 25. Twice in January, when you visited your son in camp, did you make a critical inspection of the camp on those occasions?— Yes, on the first occasion I went right round it, 26. Were you accompanied by any one at any time?—No, except when 1 went to look at the sample hutment —by the officer of the day I was accompanied. 27. Not on the first occasion?—No, only when I went to look at the hutments. 28. That was in May?— Yes. 29. And the last occasion when you visited the camp was in July, when what was termed the " fuss " was made?—l do not think there w r as much fuss then. 30. Was there not?—Oh, yes. 31. There was a good deal of excitement owing to the sickness? —Yes. 32. Did you upon any occasion call upon the Camp Commandant?— No. 33. Is it not a point of etiquette for an officer visiting the camp to call upon the Commandant?—l was not an officer. 34. That was the reason then—you had resigned your appointment?—l was not an officer. 35. Did you make any report?—No, only after I was compelled to leave the service. 36. Did you not circulate the first two pamphlets about what 1 have called your grievance while you were still an officer? —Only after I had been refused the inquiry I asked for, and to which I was entitled. 37. You were still an officer when you wrote those pamphlets? —After my application for an inquiry had been declined. 38. Did you make any recommendation or complaint to the Camp Commandant about what you saw at Trentham? —No, I made no complaint. 39. If you were interested in the health of the men did you not think it would be better for you to see him and make suggestions based upon your experience as a Medical Officer? —I preferred to approach the Minister of Defence. 40. You said nothing to the authorities in camp? —No. 41. Now, you have made various suggestions as to what should have been done: you say that a bacteriological examination of the ground should have been made before the camp was pitched ?—Yes. 42. Did you see that that was always done in camps of which you were in charge?—No, because the camps of which I have been in charge have been on clean, new ground. I have been over them and rendered it unnecessary to have a bacteriological examination. 43. The Chairman.] A bacteriological examination should be made of the ground uidess it is virgin ground?— That is so. 44. Mr. Gray.] What was the size of the largest camp of which you have had charge?— Four thousand men. 45. For how long were they in camp? —About a week. No —there was the camp of the Fifth Contingent : there were about eight hundred men, and it lasted about six weeks. 46. A small camp for six weeks and Volunteer camps for about a week?— But there were thirty thousand at Aldershot when I was in camp there. 47. Do you suggest that the methods adopted at Aldershot are not the methods that have been followed here ?—Certainly. 48. Is Aldershot not a standing camp? —Yes, and spread in every direction. 49. Do you know the area of the camp at Aldershot?—No. 50. The Chairman.] They have hutments there?—l never saw any hutments there. They have permanent barracks there. There were about ten thousand Volunteers there from all parts', but they were miles apart —in tents. 51. Mr. Gray.] How many years is it since you were at Aldershot? —It was in 1898 —seventeen years ago. 52. The Chairman.] That was before what would be called the grand manoeuvres, upon which modern methods have been based? —Yes; those special manoeuvres were held in consequence of the War Office having been asked to hold them for years. The Boer War brought home to the people in authority the necessity for reorganization and alteration in the methods. 53. Mr. Gray.] You have given the Commission a number of figures relating to the percentage of deaths. I would like to ask you what is the ordinary death-rate for civil life. You said you would have expected the death-rate in a camp of three or four thousand men to have been less than that in civil life?—l do not know about the death-rate in civil life, but you will get it in the Official Year-book. 54. Do you know what it is? —I do not know what it is all round. 55. But whatever it is, you expected the death-rate in camp would have been less?— Yes; I mean the deaths from, pneumonia. In civil life in New Zealand it was 287 for 1913, and the deaths from pneumonia in the camp have been a great deal more than that, 56. You spoke of the tents being too close—you said the tent-pegs were overlapping : are you quite sure of that? —Yes,