[a. ROWLANDS.

1.—7.

154

127. We had some evidence given to us before?— They have not sold. They have invested in land in order to develop the cattle country of the Northern Territory, and it would be against their interests to sell again; that would let the Americans in, which is the very thing they are trying to prevent. • . 128. When your firm send lamb Home it is released at an average price of lOd. per pound, and sold retail at, Is. lOd. : do you agree with that?—l have never seen any fixed retail-price list 129. You know that the meat, has been sold at from Is. lOcl. to 2s. per pound at Home?—l have only seen the statement in the New Zealand newspapers, and the statements made m the House of Commons and cabled out here. 130. Supposing it is true that your meat is released at, lOd. and sold retail at Is. lOd., who gets the profit?—l suppose the storekeeper; hut it does not represent anything like a profit ot Is. I know that lam paying something over Is. a pound for lamb cutlets in Auckland. The Chairman: We want to know about London. We want to get the details of how the profit is made. 131. Dr. Newman,:} Y 7 our lambs are released in London at Kid. per pound and retailed at Is. lOd. : now, who makes the Is. per pound profit? On a 361b. lamb that is 365. who gels that money? Here is Fletcher's store, and across the street is a retail shop, and on a 361b. lamb a profit of .".(is. is made?— The retailer docs not get lhat profit. lam positive you are not doing justice to the position, if 1 may say so. The retailer may sell some lamb at Is. LOd., but he never gets that average for the whole 'carcase; the average would be much lower than that. The reason why the British Government for so long allowed the storekeepers to sell at these high prices is that the storekeepers were getting next to nothing out of it. They had to keep their stores open, and they got very little meat to put through. 132. But, surely the difference of a shilling provides an exorbitant profit for somebody?—A big profit on that particular bit of meat, If you were in business and were selling in the ordinary wav two hundred carcases of lamb per day, and if under war conditions you were selling only ten" carcases per day, what would have appeared to be a very big profit per carcase on the larger amount would not be anything like adequate to cover the rental and upkeep of that shop under the changed conditions, when only ten carcases were being handled per day. 133. You know nothing more about it?— Y know this much : \ have seen Eastman's balancesheet, and that big multiple-shop firm, operating in England, has had a very bad year indeed. The Imperial Government has not been releasing anything like enough meat to enable these shops to make a turnover. It may appear that on the little meat sold to them they are making a huge profit, but I think the fact is that they have such a small turnover that there is scarcely any profit whatever. 134. 'The Chairman.} 1 think your assumption is wrong? —Is it? 135. Why do you predict that the price of beef will fall: is there not, a shortage of I think that the high prices have stimulated production and opened up new sources of supply. 136. Is not the world being ransacked by the fighting nations for beef?— Yes, every corner of it, at high prices which have stimulated production everywhere. Ido not think that the people will be able to buy big quantities of beef after the war. They certainly will not be willing to pay the present prices. 137. Is this Committee to understand thai Fletcher's and the Vestey companies are in active competition against the American meat firms?— Yes; they always have been and will be. They are competing in New Zealand certainly. 138. The going to America of Vesteys did not mean collusion or any friendly agreement with the American Meat Trust?— Certainly not —none whatever. 139. Mr. T. A. If. Field,:] I understood you to say that Fletcher and Co. are simply a part of Vestey and Co.? —Yes. I would rather say that they are part of the Union Cold Storage Company. The Vesteys are directors. MIL Are Weddel" and Co. a part of the combination ?— No; Weddel and Co. are London meat-brokers. 111. You know that a question was asked in the House of Commons about Sir William Vestey and Mr. Edmund Hoyle Vestey —if they were about to leave England to escape taxation? —I saw that in (he I'astoralists' Review. I 12. Do you know what city they selected when they went to the United States and took offices? They went first to New York to an office in the new cold store which they were building there. They found that New York was not the place; it was like going to Lyttelton instead of Christchurch. where the Canterbury meat trade was concerned. Chicago is the only place in which to conduct meat business in America, and they had ultimately to go there. Chicago was the important point in connection with their business. Outside of the four big American firms usually spoken of as "the trust" there are many thousands of free packing-houses throughout the States. The French Government had a Commission recently to arrange contracts for the supply (»f meat to the Army, and the three firms chosen by the French Commission were Morris and Co., Swift and Co., and Vestey Bros. Vestey Bros, have been developing Madagascar for the French Government in the same way as (hey developed the Northern Territory of Australia for the Commonwealth Government, 143. Mr. Anstey.] A regular octopus?- You may say so. It is British capital, and 1 think lhat British people should be proud. The only way in which we could compete with the American firms at the present lime was to have supplies of bully beef. Tremendous quantities of that are required for the armies, and the only place where it can be secured in big quantities is the United States. If our firm is to hold a share of (he French contracts and the British contracts they must have a share of these subsidiary (lungs that you cannot get in the British Empire at the present time. It should be understood Hint if an outside firm takes up these big contracts