23

I.—9a.

P. W. ROWLEY.]

10. Then, why did he not make a Dominion award in the ease of my union '. I could not say why he did not make such an award beyond what 1 have already stated. 11, The whole point is this : In giving his decision he referred to some regulation or other I am perfectly convinced he did. The machinery' could not be put into proper operation. That is the point, I wish to make clear. If the machinery can be improved, would it not only be of benefit to the workers and the employers, but also to the community generally ?—Yes, quite so. 12. You say there is nothing to stop these. Dominion awards, and yet they have never been granted ?—Of course, there have been two or three awards covering the whole Dominion. The shearers' award was one of them. 13. Mr. Howard.] They are really district awards : each district has to have its award ?'- That is so ; but the difficulty has been got over by what \ have been explaining. There is the same award in the different districts throughout the Dominion ; it is a uniform award. 14. Mr. Keilett.] According to Mr. Pryor, all the employers in the Dominion would have to be cited if the Court only sat in the one centre. Of course, I admit that there may be many employers who may be outside of an employers' association, but ib there are two associations operating together would it be possible to get a Dominion award under such conditions without citing all the employers ? — 1 think what you are trying to get at is to simplify the procedure under the Act so that there would be only the one Dominion, award. That is a matter which would have to be left to the discretion of the Court, according to the circumstances of the case. There are cases where the local conditions are different, 15. Can you cite one such case ?—The waterside, workers. 16. But local conditions could be fixed up without the. Court having to go, say, to the Bluff from Auckland. Could not the Court sit in Wellington and fix up all the local conditions ?- You would have to bring all the parties to Wellington. 17. My experience is that local conditions are practically minor points, which do not, require so much consideration as the general principles in connection with an award. Look at the very large expense which would be saved if the Court only sat, in the, one centre. It would also be able to keep up with its work, instead of being five or six months behind. It would minimize all that, and you would get better results ? T think if you called the Court hen 1 to Wellington under section 4 of the 1911 Act they would still have, in certain cases, to hold sittings in other places than Wellington. 18. Mr. Potter.] Is it not a fact that if they had the one union there would be a. tendency to kill the individuality of the local unions ?—Of course it would kill all the, local unions. 19. It would kill the individuality of the unions ? -It would kill the existing unions and make one union for the, whole Dominion. 20. Is it not a fact that if there is only the one union tin- greatest power would lie in the hands of the executive of that union ?—Yes, that would be a- fact. 21. The Chairman.] From your experience do you think this Bill is necessary to promote the best understanding between the employers and the employees that is, speaking of the Bill generally ? That is a political question which is somewhat difficult for me to answer. Without appearing to be partial, I really do not think that the provision would improve matters at all. By giving effect to this Bill it appears to me that the various unions would not be consulted at all. To give a case in point, I should like to say that some, years ago there was a bone of contention as between the saddlers in Wellington and the saddlers in the rest of the Dominion. The saddlers in Wellington wanted piecework, but the, rest of the saddlers did not, and the result was the Wellington employees were outvoted. 22. Mr. J. S. Dickson.] They have no piecework now ? No The tailors were working on piecework. 23. As to the general principle of the Act, are you of opinion that it has lost its usefulness- that is to say, the purpose for which it was created ?—No, Ido not think so ; but Ido think that the purpose for which the Act was first intended has been lost sight of. The original intention of the. Act was simply to abolish " sweating," and fix merely the minimum rates of wages, leaving the ordinary law of supply and demand to fix the actual conditions of employment. 24. To prevent disputes ? -An endeavour was then made by the employers to force that minimum into a standard wage. In the skilled trades it is not feasible. An attempt was then made by the workers to force up the standard wage. It seems to me something more, is wanted than leaving the. minimum wage, to be fixed by the Court. What is wanted is some further machinery to fix the actual wages of every employee, having regard to skill and conditions. 25. The Chairman.] Do you recognize that there is an attempt made, amongst the organizations to improve the conditions ? —Yes. 26. Is it a real attempt, owing to the slackness in the Act, to improve their conditions ?-- It is, largely for the reasons I have explained. The Arbitration Court fixes the minimum wages. The men are not satisfied with that, and in consequence they have thrown a certain amount of mud at the Arbitration Court. 27. You think the Act could be amended in the interests of the workers which would promote more harmony in industrial matters ? One way out of the difficulty would be for the Act to provide for the establishment of a local committee to fix the details of the conditions and the actual wages according to the skill required. This wage would then become the minimum wage of the worker concerned. 28. Mr. J. S. Dickson.] If the Act were altered with respect to the fixing of the different wages for the different classes, or for each particular class or trade, would it not bring in that bad system where the employers at one time paid their employees Is. a day more if they worked hard ? No. You would not fix one man's rate of pay in particular. The principle is already in operation where the worker doing advanced work receives a higher wage namely, typographers, who receive higher wages as soon as they can perform so-many " ens " an hour. 29. That is on piecework ?— No. he receives so-much a week. 30. Mr. Keilett.] Docs it make for efficiency ?—Yes. That is not the pernicious system you are speaking of. 31. You must have noticed several times when Mr. Justice Sim was on the Bench that he referred repeatedly to the fact that they only fixed the minimum rate of pay, and he could not understand the employers not recognizing ability ? —Yes, that is so,