W. I. CARNEY.]

31

I.—lob.

Carney ; " Armour and Company Year-book, 1920 " ; " Statement of Armour and Co. (Limited) of London to the Interdepartmental Committee on Meat-supplies " ; " Average Selling-price, Dressed Beef, Lamb, and Mutton from 1913-1919 inclusive in United States America." The Chairman : Before Mr. Carney answers questions I may re-mind members that they are here in their capacity as a parliamentary Committee, and I ask them to e;onfine their remarks as far as possible to asking Mr. Carney relevant questions without commenting on his answers. Mr. Jones : It has been stated that prices are fixed in London for New Zealand. If that is so, does it not prove that wo are: in the hands of a very powerful trust or combination now ?—I do not think that is so. I think there: are certain middlemen in London who have, agents in New Zealand. Ballantyne and Co., for instance, cable out every week to their representative, A.rlow and Co., the price they are willing to give for stock, but I elo not think that is so with every company. Probably some of the freezing companies have their agents in London who cable to them, perhaps every week, the price they are willing to pay for stook. 1 ele> not know that the thing is all talked over in London before the; price: is sent out. It may be sei. If so, we have, a powerful trust eir combination controlling us ?— I think you have: —absolutely. I am. sure of it. Are Armour and Co. in that trust at Home in any way ? —No. Armour and Co. are treated at Home as they would be treated in New Zealand. To illustrate' what I mean, when the meat commandeer took place it was agreed in New Zealand with the Hon. Mr. Massey that any meat not wanti;d by the British Government for the Army and Navy wemld be released to parties nominated by the New Zealand shippers. Armour and Co. of Australasia nominated Armour and Co. of London. The Board of Trade, asked that we should do this, anel we did it. The Board of Trade was composed e>f men not in favour of Armour and Co. coining into the thing, and we, did not get the moat nominated to Armour and Co. of London owing to the fact that the powerful, organization at Home, of which Armour and Co. are not members, was allowed to dominate what was going to happen in London. On one occasion when Armour and Co. were nominated for ten thousand carcases of New Zealand lamb, which the Board of Traelo said London was to have, the Minister of Food said we were not to have them. Armour and Co. of London sent vehicles or vans for these carcases for a week, but did not get them, and they were finally put into the digester as unfit for human i;onsumption. That shows we are not in any ring in Londem or anywhere else. Would you pay for doing business in New Zealand the. taxation that any other company woulel pay ? —Yes ; and in anything we do, no matter what it is—meat or any other line:—we are a company of our own. Ido not sell, to Armour and Co. of Chicago, or tei Armour and Co. of London, unh'ss they will pay me the best price I can get. As illustration, our hides this year : There was a time when we could have exported hides, and 1 telegraphed Armour and Co. of Chicago and asked what price they would pay, and they said 20el. I worked round New Zealand anel found a concern that would pay me 24d., and I sold to that concern all the ox-hide we had. It is the, same to-day. We, are buying a little cheese: Armour and Co. of Londem cannot see their way to pay me the price I want in order to make a profit on my cheese, and therefore lam not selling to Armour and Co. I will consign it to them and take my chance on the London market. I will pay tax on the profit I make in New Zealand, and not in London. I am anxious to get that profit back here and pay tax em it in New Zealand. I will consign my meat to Jim Smith if he, will pay a better price than Armour and Co. In fixing the price they charge the farmer for freezing do the companies take into consideration all the offal —tongues, &c. ? —I think they take it in, but Ido not think they pay enough for it. I think the farmer to-day is getting a low price for his offal—fat, tongue, and tail. The offal he gets nothing for : he gets it in an indirect way in his freezing-charge. Would your company risk money in freezing-works with an annual license- which was liable to be, cancelled ?—No. Armour and Co. are business men enough to know that New Zealand has far too many froozing-works to-day, and I am sure Armour and Co. would never invest money in any freezing-works in New Zealand. We: have had the chance and turned, it down. You have had the chance of buying ? —Yes. Mr. J. R. Hamilton : If yem owned freezing-works or put them up could you lower the oharges of freezing to the producer ?—Yes. I believe Armour and Co., if they had freezing-works in New Zealand, would give you back all the meat if you gave them all the by-products—the offal and everything that goes with it. I believe they would give you back the meat after killing it for you. Althemgh Armour and Co. are in the meat business they make no profit out of meat. The profit on meat is absolutely nothing. They make; their profit out of the by-products. Some years ago the' farmers in Texas wanted to start freezing-works. They asked Mr. P. D. Armour to come down there and speak to them. He said, " Gentlemen, do not start freezing-works hero. Send it to Chicago. Pay the; freight, and I will send you back the, meat. You give me the- by-products, and I will give you the: meat back, and 1 will not charge you anything for killing.'' That is an absolute statement. You think the producers in Now Zealand are paying too much for getting their stuff frozen ?— No, Ido not think so. I think tho, freezing-charges are low, but I consider the producer is not getting enough for his fat and tongue: and tail. The' freezing-works have made big profits ? —Yes, out of the farmer, but not out of the- killingcharge's ; and out of the four millions the* British Government paid the companies for storage. Mr. Powdrell: Do the, works he-re not hand back the meat? —Yes. We buy either on the hook or from the farmer. I do not want any confusion about this matter and the commandeer. In the', commandeer all we diel was to go on the open market and buy at the best price we could, anil we put it into the farmers' companies wherever we could. In all our killing, we killed over 60 per cent, with farmers' companies. The balance was killed, with the New Zealand Refrigerating Company. Outside our killing with the, New Zealand Refrigerating Company we killed with farmers' companies, and we are the best friend the farmers have. Sir George Clifford says we are the best friend he: has, and he does not want to lose our competition. Do Sir George Clifford's works buy ? —No. Sir George Clifford welcomes us, but the New Zealand Refrigerating Company do not want us to get a license because we buy in the districts they are; in. If I had my way and the farmers' companies or somebody wemld put up works em the other