T.—lob.

34

[W. I. (ARNEY.

conditions as will afford an outlet for all manufacturers and handlers of food products on equal terms . . with facilities open to all upon payment of just and fair charges " ? —That last clause was recommended the same as the other three published when cold-storage, places had to get licenses. The businesses of Armour and Co. —branch houses all over the United States —were not taken over, but public houses were required to get licenses to carry on business —that is, refrigerating companies. Are you able to state that the Federal authorities are neit carrying out that recommendation ?— Up to date they have; not carried out any of the Commission's recommendations. We know that they wore given two years' time ?—I say that up to date I know that none of the recommendations have been taken up. I was not aware that that was suggested, but they wore to exercise the power within two years ?—I do not think so. You stated something about Armour and Co. not having contribute-d something to a paper ? — Yes. Armour and Co. contributed to a joint fund, did they not, for publicity ? Let me read what the Commission's report says : " The:se joint funds, as will be shown in one of the sections of the report, were used to employ lobbyists and pay their unaudited expenses ; to influence legislative bodies : to elect candidates who would wink at violations of law, and defeat those pledged to fair enforcement ; to control tax officials, and thereby evade just taxation ; to secure, modifications of governmental rules and regulations by devious and improper methods ; to bias public opinion by the control of editorial policy through advertising, loans, and subsidies, and by the publication and distribution at large expense of false and misleading statements." Yem are aware, are you not, that they had that fund, and that Armour and Co., among others, in some: single: assessments contributed, as high as 50,000 dollars ? —There is an American Meat-packing Association, of which every meat-packer can become a member. And they had joined it ? —I do not know. I suppose they would. You have questioned in your statement a sum of money being paid ?—I say he might have paid 1,000 dollars, but not for bribery, as you accuse him of having done. What is this 50,000 dollars ? —I do not know, but I am sure Armour never gave any editor or reporter 1,000 dollars. Are you aware that this money is paid out without audit ? —I do not know anything about that. I am just denying the statement you made. Will you deny the statement in the: Commission's report ? —I cannot. Tlie. Chairman : He cannot express an opinion upon that. He is not in a position to do it. Mr. Lysnar: Have you any statement from Mr. Armour to say that he has not made a state mont ?—No. You just say it " off your own bat " ? —I say it knowing the man as I do. I would stake my life on it. In Mr. Armour's evidence before the United States Senate Committee this telegram appears; " Washington, 7th July, 1916. —We all agree that it is very important to flood the Judiciary Committee with telegrams from all over tho country, and especially tho districts where the members come from, protesting against the passage of the Borland resolution, on the grounds that live-stock selling at very satisfactory prices, and any investigatiem will only disturb present satisfactory conditions. Please arrange a meeting this morning with Vecder and Nelson Morris. Get a committee to work on this promptly —presume banks, commission men, feeders of cattle, and live-stock men generally, and any one else you can think of that would be helpful. Think messages should also be sent to Congressmen as well as members of the, Judiciary Committee. ... It is quite important to reach Gard, of Hamilton, Ohio. Please get as much action as you can on this, and promptly, and have the messages sent in varied language.--(Signed) Arthur Meeker." Mr. Armour was asked, "Do you recall anything in regard to that telegram ? " His answer was, " I never happened to have seen the telegram, but I guess it is likely that happened." —Quite so. Then Mr. Armour concludes, " I see nothing wrong about carrying out any of those provisions."Nor do I. You think it is right to try to influence these Judicial Committees ? —I think it is right for any man, when he thinks he is in the: right, to make every possible move to uphold his position, and that is what lam doing to-day. I know lam in the right, and lam doing everything I can to make every move I can to elo the right. I think it is a perfectly fair and sepiare thing to do. Are you aware that Mr. Armour fixed the proportions ? Let me quote from his own evidence : — " Mr. Heney : Under this Veeder pool, was the United States divided up into several territories known as Territory A, B, C, and so forth ? Mr. Armemr : I think so ; yes, sir. Mr. Honey : Now, at each of these, meetings what would happen ? How was the thing run ? Mr. Armour : Why, the shipments were turned into the office, and each man was allowed a percentage based on the business he did before he went into the pool." Do you say that is not correct ? —I cannot. I think it would be quite right at the time those things were going on. In what year did that happen ? In 1919 ?—That is when he gave evidence. If you look back you will find that it was many years ago. But the pool was continuing on ?—Never. This evidence was given last year ? —Well, it referred to many years ago. I think he would act at that time the same as is going on in New Zealand to-day. You think that is right ? —I think it is quite all right. Why did you tell tho Committee you would not be a party to dividing up ?—I say so now. I will not divide up with any man. If they elivide up in the Uniteel States ? —They can do what they like there. Might not Mr. Armour tell you to do it hero ?—He tells me to do nothing. Would you if he did ?—He would not tell me. If he did I would not do it. You say there is a member of Parliament who is travelling round New Zealand saying that Mr. Armour wants a license to kill: who is the member ?—One member of Parliament has been rounel through New Zealand, and at one meeting, according to a Press report, he made that statement. That member is Mr. W. D. Lysnar, of Gisborne.