13 —A. 4b.

A.—4b.

nor did he go at any other time. The second time he went was at the time which suited him and not the time appointed. Mr. Slipper : May I clear up the point ? lam not clear on this point. Judge MacCormick : I am only clear as to what I heard your witness say. Mr. Slipper.\ Were any of these requests to see the Government made before the 7th July, 1927 ? —No. So that you know nothing of what led up to that banishment order of the 7th July, 1927 ?— That is so. Mr. Baxter.] Do you know what I refer to when I mention emblems of sovereignty ?—Yes. Do you or do you not wish to say anything to the Commission about that ?—Yes. Do you know of your own knowledge what were handed over ?—-I have heard about them. The Chairman : Assuming that these so-called emblems of sovereignty were handed over, you can ask the witness any questions you like if it is worth while. Mr. Baxter : I wish to bring up the alleged grounds of complaint. What do you wish to say about them ? —These have got their own special names, but they are not the emblems of sovereignty. The Chairman : We do not want to know that. The cause of complaint with regard to these emblems of sovereignty b i ig handed over and transferring the sovereignty to New Zealand is all nonsense ; it is all rank absolute nonsense, which could only have arisen in the ultra-suspicious minds or ultra-ignorant minds. Mr. Baxter : Or of the Natives. The Chairman : As I say, ultra-suspicious or ignorant minds. lam not referring to any race. Mr. Baxter : The complaint is the way in which they were handed over. The Chairman (to witness).] It is not what was done, but the way in which it was done ?—I feel sorry for the New Zealand Government being misled by such emblems. What complaint do you want to make ? —I am dissatisfied with the way in which Toelupe termed the emblems the sovereignty, when they were not. Is that the only complaint ? —Yes. Judge MacCormick : Will you please translate this. The presentation of these articles, whatever they were, by a Samoan chief or chiefs to the Governor-General has no effect whatever upon the position of New Zealand in regard to Samoa. The position of New Zealand with regard to Samoa is fixed by the mandate from the League of Nations, and neither the Samoan chiefs nor the Government of New Zealand can alter that mandate, and whatever took place between the chief or the chiefs and His Excellency the Governor-General has no effect on the relations of New Zealand and Samoa. I make that statement with the concurrence of the Chief Justice, and we hope it will relieve the Native mind of any suspicion as to any effect the presentation might have. The Commission has no authority to speak for His Excellency the Governor-General, but he, no doubt, would understand the presentation of the articles referred to to be a mere compliment. However that may be, these emblems can have no effect whatever in regard to the standing of New Zealand with Samoa. Having that explanation, I think the reference to this question might be considered as closed. Mr. Baxter: It relieves me of the necessity of having to worry any further about this matter and I hope it will be satisfactory. (To witness :) With regard to the presentation of " fine mats," &c., do you wish to say anything about this question to the Commission ?—Yes. It should not be prohibited, as it is a Samoan custom and shows the rank of various chiefs. Were not the Samoans prohibited from the presentation of " fine mats " ?—Yes. Mention has been made with respect to the medical levy : do you or do you not wish to say anything about that ? —I have something to say about that. lam not satisfied that the people should pay the medical tax, as not every one requires medical attention or treatment. Why should they not pay the tax ? —lf a person requires medical treatment he should pay for his own medical treatment. Judge MacCormick: You cannot support a contention of that kind, as the system would break down at once. Mr. Baxter.] Mention has been made with respect to the dividing-up of land in the villages : do you wish to say anything about that ?—I am not satisfied with that law either. Judge MacCormick.] It is not a law. Mr. Baxter: It appears in a booklet that has been published. I have not seen a corrected translation. Of course, lam speaking subject to correction. It was a law passed by the Faipules. Judge MacCormick : They cannot pass a law of that kind. Mr. Baxter : I know, sir. Judge MacCormick: Well, pass on, then, and treat it as a proposal from the Faipules to the Administration. Witness : The Samoans call any rules or regulations laws. The Chairman: My colleague states that in his experience Natives frequently are not able to distinguish between an existing law and a proposed law. Mr. Baxter: I will call it a proposed law. (To witness :) What is your view as to that ?—lf that were done, then the matai would have no authority over his family, and it would result in serious trouble. Is that the only complaint ?—The matai of the family should continue to distribute the family land amongst members of his own family : that is the Samoan method. That is all on that point. What is the name of the Faipule, or is there more than one Faipule, in your district ?—His name is Logo. There is more than one Faipule for that district. What are the names of the others in your district ? —Their names are Aiono, Salanoa, Nanai, and Su'a.

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