H. —11a.

10

The Chairman read subclause (5) of clause 4 of the Act, as follows : " Save in special cases authorized by the Minister, no fees or allowances shall be payable to members of a committee." Mr. W. Maddison drew attention to the expenses which the representatives were called upon to incur in attending the meetings, the committees having no means by which these expenses could be paid. He suggested that any out-of-pocket expenses be met. Mr. W. H. Winsor hoped they would continue to do the work more or less as a labour of love, and suggested that no attempt be made to pay members of committees for the work they were doing. Mr. A. F. Sandford did not think that they should ask fees. They should do it in the interests of the boys. No doubt the employers would be quite prepared to pay expenses, but the employees were not in a position to do so. When they were away from their homes it was not only the train fare — in their case there was a night's lodging. He thought they should pass the second portion of the remit. Mr. A. Rice said that they found it very difficult indeed to give proper supervision, for the simple rea.son they had not the facilities for the travelling which was necessary in order to make an inspection of the country districts and see that shops were properly equipped. Some parts of the country they could not reach. They were working in the interests of the country, and he thought that some method should be provided by which they could get around and do the supervision that was necessary to carry out the orders. That was all they asked. As actual members of the committee they were quite prepared to go along and do their bit to improve the conditions of the trade. After further discussion the following motion was carried : That the Minister be requested to exercise the authority vested in him by clause 4 (5) of the Act to the extent of refunding members of committees' out-of-pocket expenses incurred by them in carrying out their duties under the Act. Mr. W. Maddison asked if out-of-pocket expenses would mean that an employer or worker would be paid for actual time he had lost. The Chairman thought it would, but the interpretation would rest entirely with the Minister. Proposal 16 : That employers and workers, members of committees, should be limited to persons who are or have been actually engaged in the industry concerned. Mr. E. R. B. Holben considered that a representative of the technical school on the committee would be of great assistance, and moved: That the words " excepting any person that they ask to attend from the technical schools " be added to the remit. Mr. F. D. Cornwell pointed out that quite a number of small unions were not able to send men to these Apprenticeship Committees, and sent their secretary along. The secretary was quite conversant with apprenticeship orders of several trades, and it would be an injustice to the small unions to cut them out. The amendment was lost. The following amendment was then carried without further discussion : That the employers and workers, members of committees, should comprise a majority of persons who have been actually engaged in the industry concerned. Proposal 17 : That representatives of Apprenticeship Committees be added to Technical School Boards. A delegate expressed the opinion that they did not want to do away with the ordinary representation, but, as quite a big amount of the work of technical schools was in connection with apprentices, he thought there should be a representative of the Apprenticeship Committee in addition to look after the interests of the night classes. Mr. J. Patterson thought it was a question for the employers and"unions connected with different apprentices to see that practical men represented them on the Technical College Boards. Several delegates pointed out that employers and workers' organizations were already represented upon Technical School Boards. The Chairman thought that a direct representation would be of great advantage in the trades. The motion in the following form—" That representatives of combined Apprenticeship Committees be added to Technical School Boards " —was carried on the casting-vote of the Chairman. Proposal 18 : That the committees or the District Registrar, as the case may be, be empowered to allot apprentices to any employer willing and able to teach them, without having regard to the individual quota specified in the apprenticeship order. Mr. G. Mills-Palmer, in moving the motion, said that they had a distinct duty to perform to those boys who were not already engaged in industry but desired to be in the future ; but in performing this duty they were up against two difficulties : first, they had the reluctance of certain employers to teach apprentices—it was immaterial for what reason ; and, secondly, they had a movement of those already in the trade to do nothing which might materially affect the position of the craftsmen. They had to reconcile these difficulties and their duty to find employment for the boys as they came on. Every boy should have an opportunity to learn a trade ; if they did not give liim this they were going to send him to the ranks of unskilled labour, and it was these men who became a burden on the people. He thought they should do their duty by helping to provide for boys who wanted employment. Mr. W. H. Winsor considered that they had a right to protect the interest of the boys and girls and help them in every way possible. At the present time the chances of youths securing employment were limited —very gravely limited indeed. Personally, he held that every youth had a right to be taught something in some direction in any industry, profession, commerce, or anything else. At the present moment the men who had been employed on " dead-end " jobs had no chance ; the men who had monopolized the good jobs were the tradesmen. The apprenticeship orders were wrapped around