[P. Gr. DALZIELL.

L—2A.

60

Wednesday, 25th September, 1929. Frederick George Dalziell further examined (No. 10). 1. The Chairman.] When we adjourned yesterday, Mr. Dalziell, you were giving your evidence ; will you please continue ?—I would remind you, gentlemen, that my purpose in giving evidence here is to refute two main suggestions made by Mr. Yaile. The first was that we would not carry the timbers of other people ; that statement has no foundation in fact—it is Mr. Vaile's imagination. The second statement was that the transport of this district lies naturally along the- Rotorua-Taupo line. Mr. Yaile told you that if the traffic from the district served by my company's line went by way of the Rotorua - Taupo line the sum of £1,000,000 would be saved, which he quite naturally said would pay for the construction of the line from Rotorua to Ta,upo. These are two very important statements. Mr. Yaile is relying upon this kind of evidence, and my purpose is to show that that evidence is not true. There is a third statement which I had better mention now : Mr. Vaile claims —and he was supported by the report of the 1922 Commission —that there are indigenous timbers which can profitably be taken over the Rotorua-Taupo line, and which would provide traffic for that line for a number of years. Now, gentlemen, there on the wall is a map showing the whole of the indigenous timbers in that district. It has been my company's business to investigate every one of those areas. lam not now referring to the area across the country towards Napier way, but lam speaking of these areas within the pumice country. We have had every one of those areas examined by an expert, who is acknowledged to have been one of the best experts in New Zealand in the estimating of timber, the late Mr. C. B. Seeley. He spent some years in our bush laying out our tramways and estimating our quantities, and his estimates proved extraordinarily correct. He then went over and estimated the Tongariro Co.'s area, and his estimates there have been confirmed by the Forestry Department, and he himself was afterwards in employment, as engineer, at the Arapuni works. So that we have available general estimates. We could not, of course, afford to make such a complete investigation as is made when the Crown sells its timbers, but an experienced man can get some fair idea as to the quantities. Now, there is no Government Department which has made such a thorough investigation as we have — I may be wrong in that; there may be recent Forestry Department estimates, but, if so, you can get those. But as far as Sir. Yaile is concerned, and the Commission of 1922, they did not go into these questions in such a way as to have reasonable estimates of the cost of taking this timber by the Rotorua-Taupo line. As I have said, my purpose is not to oppose the construction of the Rotorua-Taupo line. Any development of any part of the pumice country, we feel, will help every other part. It is new country, but the conditions are very similar in all parts of it, with two exceptions : one is the Reporoa Valley and the other the Hautu country. These two areas are more mature than the rest of the pumice country —that is to say, they have been more turned up to the atmosphere, and they have come down to some extent from the adjoining bush country. Our experience, covering thirty years, of this country fully confirms Mr. Vaile's estimate of its value. Anything that you, gentlemen, can do to start the investigation of this question will be very helpful to those who are involved in the district. Now, on this question of transporting this timber adjacent to our line—that is, the two Government areas and the Tauri-Tutukau Block. In August, 1928, Mr. Hockly, member for the district —and the member for the district is in a rather awkward position in that he represents both the Rotorua-Taupo line and the Putaruru-Taupo line —waited with us on the then Prime Minister and told him what he also said in the House : that it was absurd to talk about taking away the product of these two Government areas from the Taupo Co.'s line to the Rotorua-Taupo line —that they were, as a matter of fact, interlocked with the Taupo Co.'s bushes, and the Taupo Co.'s line is dependent upon them for the maintenance of the settlers', traffic. Now, our request to the Prime Minister was this : We wanted to know where we were. We are a big enterprise with big capital, and a big body of employees, and we want to know just where we are. If these timbers are to be taken away, all right, we can settle down and make our plans accordingly. On the other hand, if they are to remain with us, we will need to adjust our plans to that situation. We said, that as it is claimed that this timber should go by the Rotorua line we were willing to join with the Government in any expense that might be involved in having that question settled. The big question is this ; and it is one that Mr. Vaile left out altogether : In order to take that Crown timber and that TauriTutukau timber away from our line to the Rotorua-Taupo line (our tramways touch the two Government areas) you must first construct a line over rough country to the Taupo-Rotorua line. 2. Mr. Jenkins.] For how many miles ?—I understand that they suggest going to the Mihi Village, on the proposed route of the Rotorua-Taupo line, although that section is not yet authorized —the line is only authorized to Reporoa. Now, gentlemen, nobody knows what the distance of this branch line will be, because it has not been surveyed ; but the distance, in a direct line, is a little more than half the length of the company's line —about five or six miles more than half. The Taupo Co.'s line goes in almost a direct line from Putaruru to Mokai. 3. The Chairman.'] What distance is that ? —lt is thirty-six miles as the crow flies, but fifty-two miles by the line. It is a cheap line, and therefore we go round curves in order to save expense. We have special rolling-stock to make up the equivalent. With that rolling-stock you can get a haulingpower around curves that you could not get with ordinary rolling-stock. It cost us approximately £2,500 per mile. This, then, is the important question which ought to be determined, and which in August, 1928, we and the member for the district asked the Prime Minister to have determined — what is going to be the cost of that line from the Government and Tauri-Tutukau bushes to the Rotorua-Taupo line ? It would be a little more than half the length of the company's line ; the cost to-day is more than double what it was in 1903-4, when the company's line was constructed, so that the cost of this new timber line wifl possibly be as much as the cost of the Taupo Totara Co.'s line,