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11. That is to say that the cost of producing grass would be much greater on Kaingaroa than at Rangipo ? —Not at Hautu but at Kaingaroa it would. Rangipo land is better than Kaingaroa land. Rangipo is an old totara bush, but Hautu is not; Hautu is pumice country. 12. Now, would you compare the Rangipo land with the Waiotapu country and the Taupo country, where the Taupo-Rotorua Railway is to run ? —No. 13. Mr. Samuel] Is Rangipo the place where you are managing ?—No, my brother is managing that. 14. Mr. Mahitanara] Does not Rangipo come into the prison camp farm ? —Yes, but my brother in in charge of it. 15. Do you say that the Taupo country, on the other side of Waiotapu has the same class of soil as Hautu ?—The fern country there is; yes. 16. You say that most of the country is the same ?—Yes, it is of a similar nature. 17. And would you say that it would produce as much as Hautu if worked on the same principle as Hautu ?—Yes. 18. Now, in your evidence you have stated that as far as the railway is concerned, it does not aflect you at all ?—No. 19. The better outlet for you would be towards Waimarino Station ? —Yes, I think so ; but I have not concerned myself about the railway at all. 20. Mr. Kyle.] You are not here to give evidence about the railway, are you ?—I do not know anything about the railway. 21. You have had fifteen years' experience of the pumice country ? —Yes. 22. Were you in the Government service at that time ? —Yes. 23. And you have been developing undeveloped land during the whole of those fifteen years ?— Yes, my first association with the pumice country was that time ago, when the Government was going into it. They gave me 400 acres to experiment with in my spare time. 24. What conclusion did you come to, when you were experimenting with this land ?—I came to the conclusion that all that was needed in the pumice country was humus. 25. What humus did you put into it ?-—Growing clover. 26. And ploughing it in ?—Yes. 27. Have you had any other farming experience besides working in that country ? —I have done farming at Pukekohe and on the Hauraki Plains. I was farming there when I came to this job. 28. What area from Rotorua to Taupo —the proposed route of the railway —do you think could be developed similarly to the development you have given to the land at Hautu —if it is similar country ? —Say, three parts of it—three-quarters of it. 29. As regards the breaking-in of this country from the £ s. d. point of view, what process did you adopt in breaking it in to the condition in which you have your land at Hautu ? —We grubbed out the manuka and cut out the fern, and pegged the farm off, and ploughed it no deeper than 3 in.—as shallow as possible. Then we thoroughly ploughed it with a double-furrow plough, and harrowed it, and sowed it down in temporary pasture. 30. In clover ?—Clover and rye-grass, and then rye-grass and turnips. 31. How long did that temporary pasture last you ? —Over four years ; and then it was ploughed in. 32. To bring it up to that condition in four years, do you reckon it was a payable proposition ? You say you have only done the costing mentally ? —I am not a bookkeeper ; I have not gone into the interest and other charges. 33. This area which you have got into that condition by working it —would it be suitable for the class of work that the Government perhaps might do by means of group settlement ? —Well, I should say that if it cost £15 per acre to bring it in, it is a profitable proposition. 34. Having brought it into that condition for £15 per acre would you think it profitable ? —I base my estimate on two wet sheep to the acre. 35. How long has that land been carrying that ?—I tried that for two years with no topdressing, with 2 cwt. of superphosphate to the acre when it was put in, and no top-dressing. 36. You heard the number of sheep estimated by the Railway Department to be carried over this line—B,soo —and knowing the country as you do, and what you have been able to do on the prison farm, carrying two wet sheep to the acre, do you think that is a very small or a large number that would be carried to the freezing-works or Westfield market from that area ?—Well, I reckon on putting off one thousand lambs by rail this year. 37. Off how many acres ?—About 1,200 acres. 38. Practically speaking, if this country were developed within the same time as you have taken to develop your country, it would take off practically a lamb to the acre ? —Yes, about that. 39. So that if you have 3,000,000 acres you would be able to take off between 2,500,000 and 3,000,000 lambs—instead of 8,500 ?—Yes. 40. Which is your market ? —Westfield. 41. How do von get them there ?—By motor-truck to National Park, and thence by rail. 42. How far is it from your farm, to National Park ? —Forty-two miles. 43. If this Taupo Railway went through, how many miles would you have to send your stock from your farm to the terminus of the railway ?—To Taupo —thirty-two miles. 44. Ten miles shorter than at present, and therefore that would be your natural outlet ? —I would not say that; they would be longer on the truck than by way of Waimarino. 45. Why would it be longer than by any other route ? —Well, by way of National Park I presume it would be shorter. At National Park they are trucked at 2.30 p.m., and they would be in time for the sale in Auckland the next morning.