1.—13 a,

It is extraordinary to me that with the reduced purchasing-power we would not find that the retailer would have decreased turnover and a restriction of business and that must reflect on the wholesaler. —Somewhere about the same turnover with an increase in profits of 20 per cent. It is going to be a good thing for them. Your suggestion, of course, would be general and every one would have to charge a higher price ? —I suggest that if this goes through up goes the price of grocery lines and up goes everything else. The 20 per cent, will be all profit. I was wondering whether I have a different idea of business to most people, but my idea is that unless you can bring the price of an article down to the price the public can afford to pay they will not purchase and everybody suffers. —If retailers only stock the articles which carry a high profit, people must have them. If there are no substitutes ? —Substitution for articles which are too dear opens a way for other stores to start. For instance, if the chemists had kept their prices lower there would have been no opening for Boot's Cash Chemists, Ltd. The Chairman.] May I take it in effect that there are only four articles mentioned in this sheet of prices that come into the question ?—Yes, they are half the turnover, and in connection with the ones sold at the low rate of profit the profit will be bumped up. Mr. Harris.'] If this were generally known you would get a lot of people starting ?—Yes, look at the people starting in the tobacco trade. As you have remarked, you have had a lot of difficulty about that right throughout New Zealand and the profits you obtained were not excessive and were quite reasonable. Is it not a fact that in a number of cases, particularly in the City of Auckland, considerable price-cutting in bread is taking place and that, to a large extent, has influenced the application of the Master Bakers' Association ?— It is a remarkable fact that this price-cutting in the City of Auckland always takes place at the time there is a Bill coming before Parliament making it possible to increase the price of bread. You will remember my giving evidence on the Committee on the bread question twelve months ago, and I stated that the moment Parliament had given its decision —which must be against the Bill and they could not do anything else —the price of bread would go back to the old figure in Auckland, and it did so. What about the Dot Stores ? —I do not know. And has the cutting started again ?—There must be some evidence for it, hence the price of bread. And you suggest the whole thing is been manipulated ? —I do not suggest if, I say it straight out. In your various shops, what policy have you followed so far as bread is concerned —that is, so far as selling in competition ?—I make a fair rate of profit on the bread. I make not less than we make on the whole of our business. I try and retail the bread at not less profit than we make on the whole of our business. Surely if there was a store close to you selling bread lower than you do, you would have to meet that competition ?—Yes, I would do my very utmost to get the price of bread stabilized and I work in with the secretary of the Master Bakers' —Mr. Gerrard —in Christchurch, and very often when information has reached me that there was going to be a bread war I did my best to fight it. Just one question, Mr. Sutherland, in explanation of the number of assistants on this list you have given. Is there any explanation of the reduction during the four years from 1931, 875 to 801 ?—Yes, in 1933 there were a large number of resignations from the union. The numbers go up until 1929 and the drop since 1931.—That is because there was a disagreement with the union and a lot of then dropped out. In paragraph (2) of your evidence dealing with the " Effects of the Bill " you say that the aim is to fix the price of not only proprietary articles, but also such lines as flour, bread, and sugar. Are they the cheap lines which concern you —flour, bread, and sugar ? —They are all practically the necessities of life. That does not imply that the demand for the Bill comes largely from the flour-millers and the bakers and the Colonial Sugar Co. ? —I do not think that the Colonial Sugar Co. comes into it at all, except that pressure has been brought to bear on them. They are quite satisfied with the profit being made. However, pressure will be brought to bear on them. To raise their price ?—Not to raise their price, but to raise the profit which can be made. Mr. Healy]: Just one question, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sutherland, presuming you are selling bread at the same price as the baker, your profit according to the list would really be more than that of the baker who delivers the bread ?—The baker usually has one price for selling in the shop and another price for delivery. One penny difference ? —Yes, we would sell at the same price as the baker is selling it in the shop. I understand that it costs over 3d. in some rural districts to deliver bread.—Yes, it might, but it is pretty hard to make a cash-and-carry man in the towns pay that. We take each case on its merits and we try and get the thing stabilized. I want you to take particular notice of this : that I have offered Gerrard, the secretary of the Master Bakers' Association, to go to any part of New Zealand where there is a war on and try and get the thing settled. That offer is still open. We are not out to cut the price of bread to the point where the bakers cannot make a living. We are out to stop undue profits, but we do not want to go to such an extent that it is going to influence the weight. If it came to pass would the wholesale price be increased ? —Yes. To what extent ? —lt would go up to 6|d. a loaf. We are selling now at sd. Mr. Wilkinson.] Do you own bakehouses of your own ? —Yes, I have them, but they are let. They do not belong to the Self-Help, they belong to me and are let to clients who are quite satisfied. You say your price in Wellington is sd. ;is that the general price in New Zealand ?—I could not say. It is pretty much the same elsewhere. Christchurch will be about the same. Unfortunately, I did not bring those figures, but I could send you a return certified by the auditor of several places regarding the buying and selling prices.

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