1.—13 a.

I mentioned does exist. [After discussing the invoice at some length the witness said that in this particular instance a secret rebate was given and that could be seen by the folio number.] Mr. Healy.] In the evidence of Mr. Sutherland, jun. he said to the Committee that National Distributors were the largest wholesale house in New Zealand ; would you say that is correct ? —We all say that in New Zealand more or less —at least, any one who does a very good business. Is that statement correct ?—He has 145 shops—he might be. You see we do not know other merchant's turnover. Mr. Wilkinson.] Mr. Sutherland, sen., stated that his firm —National Distributors, Ltd. —were not allowed to become members of the Merchants' Association. Is that correct ?—I will be quite frank. Have I Mr. Sutherland's permission to tell the Committee what happened ? [Mr. Sutherland apparently approved.] This question was brought up about eighteen months ago. I met one of the members of the association, and he said to me, " What do you think has happened ? Mr. Ben Sutherland wants to join the Merchants' Association ! We want to find out what the game is. Do you think it is serious ?" I said that it was worth some investigation as Mr. Sutherland has 145 shops. We might get something out of it of benefit to us. He said, " Are you serious " and I replied, " Yes." [It was eventually decided that Mr. Fraser should go out to Mr. Sutherland's home to discuss the matter one afternoon. Subsequently Mr. Fraser arranged that a motion be moved at one of the association's meetings recommending to the serious attention of the Wellington Association that Mr. Sutherland be proposed as a member —the meeting resulted in the motion being ruled out of order and that was the end of it at that time. The question resolved itself into a discussion in regard to Auckland v. Wellington.] I understand it was afterwards discussed by the Wellington Association, but I was not there. Mr. Harris.] He was not accepted as a member ? — They ruled that he was not a merchant within the meaning of our definition. The members had various reasons against it. Would that apply to wholesale ?—Yes, it was National Distributors who were suggested as a member. Mr. Healy.] Was an actual application ever made in writing ? —Possibly, I think there was. Mr. Wilkinson.] You spoke about discipline. — Yes, for the want of a better name. I mean prevention of dishonourable methods. Mr. Sutherland made a statement to this effect that he was originally on the best of terms in regard to Australian Dried Fruits, getting 12J per cent, discount, but these terms were reduced and he had to pay an ordinary grocer's prices. The allegation was that political pressure was used by the Merchants' Association ? —My answer to that is that you know more about political pressure than I. It is ridiculous. My experience of the political pressure of the Merchants' Association is that we would certainly not have enough pressure to influence any Parliament or Government. I do not think he was serious. The allegation was made by Mr. Sutherland that political pressure would be brought to bear on the position ? —No. We would not have that power ; we had nothing to do with it. There is no truth in that. He probably referred to that trip to Australia of Mr. Stronach Paterson. We had many difficulties with the Australian Fruit Board for a long time, and it was decided that Mr. Paterson and I should visit Australia for the purpose of interviewing the Australian Government Fruit Control Board. It would be impossible for our association to have the power that Mr. Sutherland suggests. It was also rumoured that we told the Australian Government to remove Mr. Sutherland's name from the list and if they did not do so pressure would be brought to bear, but there was no truth in that : we never took the suggestion seriously. The distributors in New Zealand for the Australian Fruit Control Board, which included Henry Berry, and Co., Adams Bruce, and some other big merchants, as well as our own members were not satisfied with the system adopted by Australian Dried Fruits, and it was imperative that some one should go to Australia to put our point of view. It was therefore decided that Mr. Paterson and I should leave by the " Monowai," but we certainly would not have the power to do as was suggested in regard to Mr. Sutherland. I became ill and wa,s unable to go. One of the Boards suggestions was to abolish the list and supply any one buying four hundred cases in one delivery. Mr. Sutherland could do this, and to this extent was affected as this suggested alteration was dropped. Statements were made by Mr. Horsburgh and Mr Sutherland that many grocers would be out of employment if the amendment went through—Mr. Sutherland employed five hundred grocers— because of increased profits ?—You see, lam personally more familiar with the country store business, and that is a different type to the cash and carry, but I do not think they will ever go out of business. At Bell Block there is a very tiny store with seventeen customers—farmers—and they owe £990. These figures relate to town businesses. Mr. Horsburgh said one hundred would be out of a job. —I think such statements are silly exaggerations. Do you think that if this amendment is made law it would be in the interest of the general public ? —I do sincerely. Conditions all over the world are changing and we are all getting new remedies ; if there is a possibility of improvement we must explore every avenue. If there is a reasonable chance of improving the conditions it will repay us to try out that scheme. Would not the increase in prices affect the general public ?— It might. Any increase would be in articles sold at unpayable profits and even so would be gradual, and it would be compensated by better times and better wages. Do you think it would help to increase wages ? —Yes, and that would improve the position generally. We do not cut wages ; we pay the very best we can, and good wages assist the general public in giving it increased purchasing-power, which is to our benefit.

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