GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume IV, Issue 387, 8 September 1875, Page 2

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

(From a correspondent of the Press,') HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, September 7. The Speaker took the chair at 2.30, PRIVILEGE. Mr Buckland, as a question of privilege, said it would be in the recollection of hon members that a few days ago the hon member for Avon called the attention of the House to certain returns placed before it, from which it appeared that he (Mr Buckland) had received public money. That he did not attempt denying, hut at once acknowledged it, and so far sympathised with the object of the member for Avon that he himself moved for a return giving further information on the subject. Knowing well the penalties he subjected himself to, he had been careful to look well into the matter, and was satisfied of his position. He raised as a question of privilege that all persons appointed under the Superintendents were within the Disqualification Act, and in this category were, he contended, Provincial Secretaries and Treasurers, He moved the reference of the matters to the committee appointed to answer other matters of disqualification. Mr Macandrew moved the insertion of the words “ and all persons drawing public moneys,” After considerable debate the lesolution was negatived by 40, against 20. The Government stated they considered there was nothing in the objection, Mr Buckland had previously asked permission to withdraw his motion, to which Mr Macaudrew refused consent. questions.

(1) Mr Harrison asked if the Government would appoint a Deputy Commissioner of Stamp Duties at Greymouth. (2) Mr Rollbston asked whether therewas any correspondence relating to the raist ing of the £4,000,000 loan wnich had nor yet,been laid upon the table, and if so,whether Government would lay it on the table. (3) Mr J. C. BROWN asked Government if they intended erecting a telegraph and postoffice at Havelock, Otago, and if so, when. (4) Mr Bradshaw asked whether it was the intention of the Government during the present session to bring in a Bill to amend the Adulteration of Food Act,

(5) Mr MURRAY asked the Commissioner of Customs if the Government proposed to take measures to prevent the overloading and overcargoing of steamers and sailing vessels, and the departure of unseaworthy or improperly provided steamers aud sailing vessels from New Zealand ports. (G) Mr STOUT asked whether an opportunity was given to shipowners to compete w.th the New Zealand Shipping Company (Limited) in obtaining the contract for the conveyance of emigrants from London to New Zealand.

In answer to questions, Ministers stated—(l) That they did not intend to appoint a Deputy-Commissioner of Stamps at Greymouth, considering that such an officer in each of the capital towns of the provinces was sufficient, (2) The rest of the loan correspondence, which contained nothing important, had been sent to the printer, and would be laid on the table as soon as possible. (3) The Telegraph office was to be placed at Havelock station. (4) They had an amended Bill prepared, but its introduction and carrying through this session would depend upon the progress of the business now before the House. (5) Under the motion of the hon member for Thames, this session the Government framed bye-laws under which any persons shown to have sent ships to sea unworthy or improperly fitted out, would be guilty of a misdemeanor. The Merchant Shipping Act gave power to order a survey of ships before leaving port, and if unseaworthy they would not be allowed to leave. At the present time it did not appear further legislation was necessary, nor did he think it expedient to alter the present law until suoh time as the Merchant Shipping Acts 'were altered by the Imperial Parliament, and were received in the colony. When these altered Acts were received in the colony, it would be the duty of the Government to take up the matter with a view of adopting the amendments of the English Act.

(6) There had been no public advertisement calling for tenders, but the various shipping companies trading to New Zealand were communicated with, and they all, be believed, had takeu a part in the prepared contract. [Mr Stout— “ The Albion Shipping Company.] Was that the Albion Company ? [Mr Stout —“Yes.”l It would be seen by one of the letters from Sir J. Vogel that part of the London business had been left open for arrangement with Galbraith and

Company, while the whole of the Glasgow business had been given to them. ABOLITION BILL. Hon Major Atkinson did not propose on the present occasion to follow the speeches of all the hon gentlemen opposite who had addressed them on the subject, for the sufficient reason that they already appeared to have been conclusively answered by the gentlemen on other side of the House. He, however, excepted the speech of the member for Akaroa. He would not go into the speech of the hon member for Parnell on the present occasion, because his figures, as before stated, were only fragmentary. He had not addres=ed himself to the question as a whole ; therefore it would be waste of time for him (the Treasurer) to follow him specially. The objections that the hon member raised were really included in the speech of the hon member for Akaroa. Therefore he proposed to address himself almost entirely to that speech, which was one he heard with great satisfaction, because he had undoubtedly grappled with the financial position of the colony as a whole, He announced in most unmistakable terms that the revenue of the colony, should be uied, if necessity required it, for services all over the colony. He (the Treasurer) confessed that that declaration coming from the member for Akaroa was a source of great satisfaction to him. At the same time that hon gentleman declared the land revenue should be localised by relieving it of some of the charges now imposed on it by law. He evidently recognised the fact, which must be apparent to any hon gentleman who considered the colony as a whole, that the large and wealthy provinces of Otago and Canterbury had already incurred liabilities to the full extent of their land fund. [Mr Reid : “ No.”] He repeated bis assertion ; the land revenues of those provinces would be all practically taken in two years from this date to meet liabilities voluntarily undertaken by the provinces. [Opposition “ Noes.”] He would show that presently by figures, if the hon gentlemen opposite would not interrupt. He repeated—they were liabilities voluntarily undertaken by the provinces, and this whether the provinces were abolished or not. His hon friend also saw clearly that the only possibility by which relief could be obtained was by colonial finance—that by colonial finance alone financial disaster could be avoided, and therefore he pronounced abolition was necessary. His hon friend began his speech with a history of the financial condition of the colony from 1870 to the present time. It was not his (the Treasurer’s) intention on the present occasion to follow him far into this matter. He would content himself by stating what was the real position of the provinces in respect to the public works scheme as it now stands, according to law. The position was simply this. The laud funds of the various provinces were liable for the whole of the interest upon all sums of money expended upon railway works within their respective provincial boundaries. That was the position according to law. It was irrespective entirely of abolition or not abolition, and that was a fact that appeared to him hon gentlemen on the other side of the House had entirely overlooked. They seemed to think that the charges now being localised were in some way connected with the Abolition Bill. The only effect of the Abolition Bill was to relieve the land fund to an appreciable extent. His hon friend took the financial year 1877-8 in which to apply the crucial test of the expenditure, and the ways and means of the financial proposals of the Government, and he satisfactorily proved to his own mind that they could not stand that test, and that, therefore, there would be a large deficiency. He now proposed to give his view of what he conceived would be the financial position of the colony, and of some of the provinces, during 1877-8. Before proceeding to do so, he should like to say a few words with regard to the land fund. His hon friend estimated the land fund for 1877 8 as likely to amount to the average of the last six years, namely, £580.000. He was prepared to accept that estimate as reasonable. The Government were quite determined, so far as they were concerned, that no land should be sold for the purposes of revenue. [Applause.] They were fully awake to the necessity and duty of fixing a large number of immigrants whom the colony had introduced at a cost of something over a million sterling, also of fixing the young men who are born in the colony upon the soil by making as far as possible land readily available for occupation. [Hear, hear.] Therefore he accepted the estimate of his hon friend that £580,000 was a reasonable amount. The distribution of this he (Treasurer) proposed to make as follows. Auckland would have revenue of £60,000 ; Taranaki, £23,000 ; Wellington, £ 100,000 ; Hawkes Bay, £17,000; Nelson, £17,000; Marlborough, £6OOO ; Canterbury, £145,000 ; Westland, £12,000 ; Otago, £200,000. He himself did not think any of these estimates were at all exaggerated. He believed that, in every province fully that amount would be realised, always supposing there was good and careful administration of the lands. It was also necessary that he should say, before proceeding further, that the balance of the loans unspent at the commencement of the year, amounted, not as the member for Clutha informed the house to £466,000, but to nearly four millions; when these sums are expended, there would be chargeable upon the provinces, under the present law, —Otago, £2,500,000 : Cauteibury, £2,000,000, (these sums included loans which had been raised by the provinces and would be taken over by the General Government), Wellington, two and a half millions, and so on. As he was only going to examine the position of the two larger provinces, he need not further enter into particular figures. In the following calculations he had taken three per cent as the probable return from railways at the end of the third year from now over and above working expenses. It was possible that the estimate might be a little too high. He was not prepared to* say it might not be so, but the effect of being too high would be this, —that a larger sum would have to be raised by the provinces as a charge against the land funds, or by means of local rates on land greatly benefitted by the railways passing through them. There could be no doubt that a very grave question will arise for the consideration of the Government—namely, how far it is possible that the land funds can be relieved of the present charges by some means hereafter to be fixed. For himself, without committing the Government at all, he wished to say that the Government were quite alive to the matter, and it would be their duty during the recess to consider how this could be done—how the land fund, if possible, could be relieved of some of these charges, not put upon it by the Abolition Bill, but

by the 3a\v as it now stands, in ord r that local public works might continue to be constructed. With those remarks he pro posed to consider the probable position of Otago as it would be in 1877-8. The figures he was using were well founded on the estimates of revenue for the present financial year, prepared by the Provincial Government. From them he had eliminated such items as interest and sinking fund for loan deposits, refunds of passage money, sales of Government buildings, &c. He had also increased the capitation allowance, and had taken an estimate of the population, not as it was at present, but had estimated it at what it would be during 1877-8, and added that to the province’s revenue. He took their revenue for the year at £200,000, and neither increased it or reduced it. He had gone upon the assumption that there would be no increase generally during that period, though he rather differed with the member for A karoa on that point. Whileof Otago’s revenue for the year was estimated as £314,174, the provincial services as now provided under the Appropriation Act amounted to £112,000; education, £59,000 ; surveys, £32,000; interest on provincial debt, £77,000, and interest on railways—that was the province’s moiety upon the interest for railways—£7s,ooo ; the total expenses which would have to be incurred were £357,567. So that there was a deficiency of £13,893. [Mr Reid— That is colonial finance.] He assured the hon member it was provincial finance. All the figures were perfectly correct. If the member for Taiari could point out where his figures were fallacious, he would be glad to be shewn their error. This year, without abolition, the charges which were imposed on the laud fund by the present law, on the Province of Otago, without providing a single pound for Road Boards, Municipalties, and public works, would cause a deficiency of £13,0 )0. To his mind those were very instructive figures. [Mr REID Quite alarming.] Next he would take Canterbury, and again he had taken his figures from the provincial estimates, eliminating the large balance which of course would be spent before then, and also extraordinary and uncertain sources of income, as refunds from Rakaia bridge and items of that sort, large cash balances in hand, and Lyttelton harbor loan, adding increased capitation allowance for increased population,' and he found the total income of Canterbury would be £290,972, and the expenditure would be, according to the province’s estimates—For provincial departments, £97,000 ; education, £46,000 ; lands and surveys, £;<7,OUO; interest on railways, £60,000. The provincial debt would be entirely absorbed by the taking over of the railway by the General Government. That left a balance of £49,000 to carry on public works with, and make grants to Road Boards and municipalities. If these figures were right, it was evident, as he stated at the beginning, that the land funds of the provinces had already by law been pledged almost to the fullest extent to which they were capable. If these land funds got to be sold for revenue purposes, there would be practically nothing for the provinces for public works at the end of two years. He directed the attention of the House to the fact that it was irrespective of abolition, if his friends opposite were not to be allowed to dip their hands into the colonial chest, and in preventing that he felt sure he would have the support of the member for Akaroa, who had spoken so eloquently on the sins of the Government and of the House, and of those hon gentlemen who had done that great wrong to the State ; it was very evident that there could be no great inducement for a colonial treasurer looking forward to take over those two provinces or to getting up this stir and hubbub with a view to getting a possible £36,000. He thought his friend would admit the figures he had adduced cut away the ground from under his feet : that it was with the view of laying their hands upon the provincial funds that the abolition measure had been submitted to the House. Proceeding to criticise the member for Akaroa’s figures, by which he arrived at a deficit of £250,000, he said he disagreed entirely with the hon member’s first item, for reasons that he (Major Atkinson) thought would be sufficient for the House. The member for Akaroa proposed to take as the ordinary revenue of the colony for the year, £1,460,000, that was to say he proposed to go at one jump from an increasing revenue to a revenue rate which they collected during one of the periods of the greatest depression ever experienced in the colony. [Mr MURRAY : “ No.” 1 The hon member might be correct, but so far as he (the Treasurer) knew, in 1870 the Customs were at the lowest ebb, subject of course to the correction of the member for Bruce. What possible foundation could the member for Akaroa have for such an assumption ? The Government were going to expend fully two millions on public works this year, and nearly two millions next year, besides the large sums the Provincial Governments, especially Canterbury, were going to spend on public works. There would be altogether spent this year two and a half millions, and during the next, he had little doubt, two millions. He contended it was perfectly reasonable and fair to consider that our revenue would certainly increase this year, and slightly increase next. He did not wish to put a glowing colour on these statements, therefore had no desire to exaggerate. What was their experience when their customs gradually diminished in years gone by ? It was this. It took three or four years of great depression to reduce the customs to the lowest ebb. It was a matter beyond dispute that the people who had been earning large wages, as the people here had been doing, and with the means the colonists of New Zealand obtained during the last five or six years, they would cer- ■ tainly continue within the next two years in their usual habits of expenditure. They would not draw in suddenly and absolu.ely their expenditure within one year. The pressure must be gradual, therefore he said they might safely conclude there would be very little depreciation. The member for Akaroa said the revenue would show a falling off of one-sixth straight in one year. [Mr Montgomery— I did not say so:”J He said if such a crisis occurred the colony would be practically in a state of bankruptcy. It would mean that land was practically worthless, and cattle and grain unsaleable. Therefore he must absolutely refuse to make provision for any such contingency. If any such disastei falls on the colony they will be prepared to meet it. They must apply extraordinary remedies to extraordinary diseases, but as prudent men they had no reason to anticipate such a state of affairs. Therefore it was reasonable to expect from the consolidated revenue in that year, 4J1,730,0C0.

1 *’■ ' He had already supposed the railways would return throe per cent, but he had shown it would be a matter of entire indifference, so far as their calculations were concerned, as to whether they returned it or not, as a corresponding proportionate amount would have to be charged against the land fund. Therefore he took the receipts of the railways at £226,500, assuming the cost of railways at £7,500,000, for interest on provincial loans £166,000, for loans and surveys £160,000, and for grants to Road Boards £55,000. He also differed with the member for Akaroa as to the expenditure. He thought the House would agree with him that neither that nor any other Government (and if the Government did the House would refuse it), would increase the estimates with a falling revenue. It was possible to increase the estimates when things were prosperous, but he was quite satisfied the House would not permit them to be increased with falling revenues. Therefore, he did not accept hisfiiend’s increases of expenditure, though he did his figures in regard to Municipalities, £12,000, The grant to Road Boards, £55,000, his friend had not provided. The police, he (the Treasurer) proposed to increase from £90,000 to £120,000. The provincial estimates, according to his friend, amounted to £315,000. From this he deducted £30,000 for miscellaneous, which, after abolition, would not be necessary, and he was satisfied that larger reductions could be made when the services came to be consolidated. That reduced the £345,000 to £225,000. He contended that this £120,000 was ample to provide an efficient police for the colony, but if it was necessary to provide more of course it would have to be met. The management of land and surveys the member for Akaroa put down at £124,000. He (the Treasurer) proposed to take £130,000 ; for education he put down £140,000, the Government proposed £150,000; making a total expenditure of £2,436,056, against a total revenue of £2,609,000. So that while making provision for the whole services of the colony there was a surplus of £175,000, instead of a deficit of £249,000. He contended these figures, by which he showed that they could, provide an efficient Government for the colony, were sound and reasonable, It would be observed, in estimating the land fund, he had estimated the receipts therefrom as if taken from the land funds as a whole. He might be told that it was not fair to particular localities; but_ he would show how the various provinces would be affected by that: Auckland would not be able to meet her liabilities for the services he had named by £36,272 ; Taranaki would have a surplus of £3215; Wellington a surplus of £17,398 ; Hawkea Bay a deficit of £4746; Nelson a deficit of £8271 ; Marlborough a deficit of £3978 ; Canterbury a surplus of £35,961; Otago a surplus of £5754. The surplus altogether, supposing the laud funds to be localised and only subject to the charges already incurred upon them according to districts, would be £67,228, against deficiencies of £54,000 so that it might be fairly said, as an actual matter of cash, that £54,000 would have to be provided either out of the surplus or any other means the House might think fit to direct, which by that time would no doubt have been ascertained. Of course under the proposals of Government this deficiency would be met by Treasury bills, and it was clearly the duty of the House to consider then what was the real position of the land funds of those provinces that were not able- to contribute their share to the general burdens, and if the House was satisfied that there was no reasonable prospect of those land funds being increased, they would have to make better provision. He had shown there would be ample revenue to make provision not only for their deficiencies, but if the colony saw good to do so, to relieve land funds of the provinces to a reasonable amount. He submitted he had satisfactorily demonstrated that no possible good could accrue to the colony by abolition in the way of seizing provincial revenues, but he held it was a matter of the first importance, and one which vitally affected the financial prospects, that abolition should’ take place as quickly as possible, purely on financial grounds. The Government intended to abandon nothing, but would steadily press the Bill on, feeling sure that the large majority of the House and country desired it to be carried through this session. [Cheers.] Mr Montgomery followed with a criticism of the Treasurer’s speech. In committee on the Abolition Bill, Mr Reeves will propose to extend to all the Canterbury Road Boards an endowment of twenty-five per cent of the land fund now enjoyed by the South Canterbury Boards, under the provisions of the Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works Bill. The Government Board of Works Bill will, according to the Post , it is said, provide for the appointment of a nominated president to each Board. The president is also to have a long tenure of office.