9

1.—2 c

149. Do you think it is advisable that the property should be cut up into small farms P—That is •* a very doubtful question. 150. Is there any land for settlement in that district for sale?— There is a large extent of country, and I suppose some of it may be bought at a price. 161. Do you think it would not be for the well-being of the district to cut the land up?—The property is in a peculiar position. The trustees have no power to sell. 152. I mean to let.—Then there is this disadvantage, that people do not care about building homesteads upon and improving leasehold land. If I were desirous of getting land to make a home upon, I would not take leasehold, if I could possibly get freehold. 153. Mr. Swanson.] Is this considered to be private property ?—Certainly not. 154. I gathered it was from what Bishop Hadfield said before the Legislative Council Committee ?—He is referring, I think, to private property in a similar position to the Te Aute Estate. 155. Mr. Shrimski.] I see Mr. Sydney Johnston values the property at £1500 ayear. AVill you tell us whether you consider that excessive?—I would rather not answer that question. 156. Mr. Swanson.] Do you not think that these educational endowments would be much more efficiently and economically managed, and be turned to much better account, if the State were to resume possession of them ?—I should very much doubt it. 157. Mr. Suttoni] Col. Whitmore in his evidence says, " the whole of the property is fenced ;it is sub-divided into a good many paddocks, and doubly fenced where the main road goes through it." Is that correct ?—The main block of it is fenced, with the exception of the edge of the swamp, which answers the purpose of a boundary fence. The road is fenced for one mile on one side, and for about a quarter of a mile on the other side. 158. The adjoining properties—are you occupying them ?—Yes; partly. There is one in Air. Rathbone's occupation. The block in my occupation is a property which I endeavoured to form into a Church Endowment Estate. 159. These properties are in no way connected with the Trust Fund ?—No. 160. They are of considerable acreage ?—Yes; taking them altogether, I suppose there would be 8,000 or 10,000 acres. 161. Is the Trust Estate fit for agricultural purposes. Can it be ploughed ?—A very small portion of it can be ploughed. 162. I see Col. Whitmore compares it with Mr. Tiffen's property, and says it is better than Mr. Tiffen's property. What is your opinion ?—There is some land at Te Aute which is superior to Air. Tiffen's, but the greater proportion of Mr. Tiffen's laud is agricultural land, and more suitable in several respects. 163. A Mr. Grace gave evidence before the Legislative Council Committee. Do you know how long he has resided in Hawke's Bay ?—A little over twelve months. 104. He never had any connection with the natives of Hawke's Bay previous to that?—No. 165. Ever since you have been in Hawke's Bay, you have been under intimate relations with the Natives ?—Yes. 166. Have you any reason to suppose that the Natives of Hawke's Bay look upon you in any other light than that of a friend ?—I do not think so. 167. Have you ever heard of any complaints from the Natives previous to the last twelvemonths? —The first complaints were made by Kairaitiana, in the House of Representatives. The only complaint I heard of on the premises, was when a boy refused to sweep the school in his proper turn. Another time, there was a little difficulty about getting a boy to take the mail-bag down to the train as it passed, with the letters of the whole establishment. I advised the schoolmaster not to press the matter, it not being one of tho school regulations. 168 You are still occupying the position of clergyman to the people in the Native districts?—Ares. 169. AVill you inform the committee what salary you receive ?—For some years I received a salary of £200, or a little over, per annum, from the Church Alissionary Society. There were no allowances for travelling expenses. For some years I have received my salary from the Church Missionary Society, and have expended it upon general Church purposes. Last year I informed the Church Missionary Society that I would relieve them of any further expense, as far as I myself was concerned ; but, at the same time I would continue the work as heretofore. 170. The boys at the school are principally Ngatiporou boys ?—Yes. 171. But you gave a preference to the boys of the donors of the land?—l have always given a preference to the children of the donors of the land, and for several months I kept the school almost empty, until I found there was a decided unwillingness on the part of both children and parents to make use of the school. I then invited the Ngatiporou people to send their children. 172. Do you think the Natives of Hawke's Bay are anxious to avail themselves of the means of education as a rule ?—I am sorry to say they are not, and have been very careless. There are the schools at Pakowai and Omahu. Both are empty. Renata, who has been most anxious that the children should be educated, greatly lamented their apathy in this respect. 173. Are you aware whether those schools were built by public funds I —Tes. There has been a considerable amount expended by the Government. Finding we could not get the Government to aid us in our building operations at Te Aute, the Bishop of Waiapu and myself took a considerable amount of trouble in showing Karaitiana how he could avail himself of the Native Schools Act. And seeing that my evidence upon this point had been contradicted, I procured a statement from the Native Office, showing that towards the Pakowai school the Government have given £308 for building purposes, and £342 towards the schoolmaster's salary. At Omahu, £348 has been paid by the Government towards buildings, and £448 towards schoolmaster's salary. 174. Both these schools are now closed ?—Tes. The Pakowai school has been closed since 1875, and the Omahu school more recently. 3.—1. 2c.

'er. S. Williams. Itb Nov., I8?7.